Translation Choices: Bhikkhus, Dervishes

Over time I’ve got a lot of strong feedback for my choice in using Derviş / Dervişe for Bhikkhu / Bhikkhunī in my translations: People either love it intensely, or really dislike it. :slight_smile:

Interestingly, the Islamic Mysticism has a strand of open-minded acceptance and tolerance, and many people actually connected with the environment loved the appropriation, while I generally felt more of a push-back from people who were either completely secular or just with a distaste of anything Islamic-sounding.

So I wanted to write my rationale for why I believe Derviş / Dervişe are fine choices for Bhikkhu / Bhikkhunī, perhaps with a strong contention from Zahid / Zahide which I’ve reserved for samaṇa / samaṇī.

I might yet be persuaded, of course. Still. :slight_smile:

To anyone who doesn’t speak Turkish, Persian or Arabic, perhaps this piece might also give a clue on the difficulties of porting strong cultural terms to another culture’s vocabulary, and perhaps be an interesting exploration of shared Indo-Aryan Mendicant Culture.


Baggage of Words - Studying Keşiş

In Turkish, there’s already a word for monk, which is keşiş. If we look at the Nişanyan Etymology Dictionary, we can see that it specifies a type of Christian Priests, without even talking about anything monastic. In plain Aramaic, it simply means elder.

According to Turkish Literary Institute, it simply means “Priest”.

In Turkish Wikipedia, it’s primarily explained as Christian Monks, though there’s a group of Thai Buddhist Monks. And most interestingly, it also talks about Islamic Keşiş in the sense of Renunciates, and talks about the very Sufi Mendicant culture I’m alluding to with Derviş.

Turkish Religious Institute explains that there are both Christian and Buddhist keşiş; but the same article also says that male / female keşiş are called upãsakas / upãsikas. :sweat_smile:

So, there’s an established meaning in Keşiş, which has Aramaic roots in Elder, over time signifying a certain rank of Priesthood, taking the monastic meaning, and also being applied to Buddhist Monastics in Turkey.

It would be much easier and less contentious, just to stick with it. But I still don’t think that just because we’ve done so so far, doesn’t mean we can’t try and find a better word, a stronger connonation, that signifies the difference from Christian Monasticism to Islamic / Persian Mendicant culture, which has a lot stronger organic ties to the Buddhist Mendicantism.

Pre-Islamic Persian Poverty

Unlike with Christianity in general, Pre-Abrahamic Indian and Persian societies have a shared geography and culture.

The specific word Derviş has roots in Pre-Islamic Zoroastrian culture, particularly that of Dēnkard tradition. We can trace the word to the Zoroastrian ethical vocabulary of sanctified indifference to wealth, crystallised around Middle Persian driyōš (“poor”) and driyōšīh (“pious indigence”).

From Encyclopaedia Iranica:

From all these pronouncements it is clear that the driyōš were a group within the learned clergy, a group whose members sought spiritual merit and salvation in self-imposed indigence, contentment, abstemiousness, diligence, and amicability toward high and low, a description that would fit as well the early Sufi dervishes of Islam, were it not for the absence of the components of asceticism and the monastic and hermetic life, which were characteristic of Islamic dervish orders.

Toil vs Begging

I think one of the sharpest distinctions of Christian Monasticism and that of Islamic & Buddhistic Renunciation is the very important distinction of: How do we eat?

Unlike Christian Monastics (although there are Christian Mendicants orders as well, but the word Monk is not limited to it), Sufi Derviş were for the most part, beggars, with an asterix. Again, by the courtesy of Encyclopaedia Iranica:

Proposed derivations of the term darvīš in folk etymology (e.g., < dar-pīš “in front of the door”) and the notion that it is cognate with daryūza (mendicancy) were no doubt inspired by the practice among many dervishes of begging from door to door (Borhān-e qāṭeʿ , ed. Moʿīn, II, p. 846). There is, however, no essential connection between dervishhood and mendicancy; in fact, it is sometimes held that abstention from begging is the mark of a true dervish.

Begging was a common form of livelihood, but highest derviş even abstained from that.

Continuing in the entry, I think we can find very interesting ideas:

From the 11th century onward the word darvīš was used independently of faqīr. Abu’l-Ḥasan Ḵaraqānī (d. 425/1034) characterized dervishhood as “an ocean fed from three sources: abstention (parhīz), generosity (saḵāwat), and freedom from need (bī-nīāz būdan).” Correcting the definition of a dervish simply as one who has no worldly goods, he observed that, instead, the dervish is “he whose heart is empty of cares; who speaks without awareness of speech; who hears without awareness of hearing; who eats without awareness of tasting; for whom motion and stillness are as one; and for whom grief and joy do not exist” (p. 110). For Ḵᵛāja ʿAbd-Allāh Anṣārī (d. 481/1089) the dervish was one “who does not possess the slightest particle of being.”

On a certain level this description applies to all creatures, but it is only the one who is conscious of its truth who counts as a dervish. Furthermore, “the dervish is one who abandons both this world and the hereafter and does not even have any religion” (in the sense that the dervish has no selfhood, whereas religion presupposes the selfhood of its practitioner). “The dervish must reside nowhere and recognize nothing. . . . He annihilates his own existence in the existence of God; neither mankind nor self remains for him, neither the seeker nor the sought. Such is the attribute of the dervish” (1368 Š./1989, p. 137).

I don’t think we need to look too far to see how this vocabulary is, for the most part, greatly comportable to the ideal bhikkhu / bhikkhunī:

  • Derviş doesn’t recognise anything
    “Where they stand, the streams of conceiving do not flow. And where the streams of conceiving do not flow, they are called a sage at peace.” MN140
  • Derviş abandons this world and the hereafter
    “Such a mendicant sheds the near shore and the far, as a serpent its old worn-out skin.” SNP 1.1
  • Derviş doesn’t have any religion
    “In the same way, I have taught a simile of the teaching as a raft: for crossing over, not for holding on. By understanding the simile of the raft, you will even give up the teachings, let alone what is not the teachings.” MN22
  • Derviş has no selfhood
    “Tathāgata is not apprehended as real and actual even in the present life.” SN 22.85.
    “All Dhamma are not-self.”
  • Derviş abandons everything, having no joy or grief left
    “Good people let go of everything; the peaceful do not prattle about sensuality. Whether they are touched by pleasure or pain, neither elation nor depression can be seen in the wise.” Dhp 83

Fanā & Nibbāna

Crucially, one of the most important topics of Sufi Mysticism, which scholars largely agree that is influenced by Indian thought is the Fanā concept.

Abu Yazid al-Bistami (804–874) introduced the concepts of fanā and khudʿa into Sufism as a result of the influence of his teacher Abu Ali al-Sindi on him. Fanā means the ending of existence, that is, the complete effacement of the individual ego in order to become one with God; khudʿa, on the other hand, means deception or trickery as an explanation of the material world — ringing the Mahāyāna doctrine of māyā. Both concepts are alien to the Arabic Classical Islam.

In Hindu and Muslim Mysticism, R. C. Zaehner argues that al-Sindi, who is known to have converted from another religion, most likely derived the former concept from the Chandogya Upanishad, and that this in turn came from the Svetashvatara Upanishad as interpreted by Shankara (788–820), the founder of Advaita Vedanta.

The topic of Fanā and Nibbāna has been a source of extensive study in the academia. There are a lot of Orientalist Western scholars that find a direct link, as well as Islamic Scholars.

Of course, the soteriology and the language is not the same — and I’m not trying to link that Sufism is the same thing as Buddhism. :slight_smile:

Specifically, whether it was the Buddhist or Brahmanical influence over Sufism on its ideal is also contested. It sounds a lot more like Atman dissolving into Brahman, in the Godly-context of Islamic thought.

Still, I want to draw attention to the influence of Indian and particularly Buddhist thought on the development of Sufism, which has been an extensive source of academic investigations.

Are Bhikkhus Derviş?

No. :slight_smile:

Coming back to the matter of translation, Sufism is not the same thing as Buddhism, and historical Derviş are not the same thing as Bhikkhus. But we need to use something to translate! :smiley:

There was a time that Keşiş only meant Christian Monastic, and after a while, people have extended its usage to other religions. Perhaps the same thing can happen with the word Derviş. Perhaps it’s a pipe dream of mine.

I still think it’s worth the trouble, because I believe the ideals that are brought to mind with derviş are much more strong and resonant than just Christian Monk.

But I hope, at least, this was still an interesting read on a common thread of the Indo-Aryan Mendicant cultures. :slight_smile:

:lotus:

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Is this what you use for thera/theri? That sounds like it would make sense.

Thanks for sharing. I go pindapat in a predominantly Muslim area and have always had the hope that there was context in their traditions for what I am doing. I’m yet to receive alms from the Muslim community, but I receive enough food and many curious smiles.

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I’ve opted for the Kıdemli Derviş, meaning simply senior. To be honest, had I not been researching for the etymology I would’ve never known that Keşiş meant elder! That meaning seems to have completely disappeared. :slight_smile:

I have never heard anything to hint at mendicantism as an institution is alive in Turkey or any other moslim countries, but many traditional tales indeed talk about such Sufis, traveling / storytelling mendicants. So I’m sure they also grew up with such tales. :slight_smile:

Thanks for the kind words, Venerable. :folded_hands:

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If you don’t know, how to swim, it is rather the good idea to be strongly attached to the raft in the middle of a great lake. What do you think?:wink:

Are there a dancing dervishes?

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I don’t understand how the appropirate time to hold the raft or not is relevant to the matter of how the ideal derviş is said to transcend the religion, similar to the ideal bhikkhu arahat who transcends the dhamma, which was the comparison being made?

If the derviş being said to abandon religion sounds different, you might want to check out the Four Doors of Sufism, which is the Gradual Path of a Sufi, starting with the Qo’ran and strict religious observance at the first door, towards a release of all religion step by step:

Ritual whirling is a tradition of a certain Sufi sect (rather than being the norm across the board). It might be called a dance in a certain sense.

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Reading this, I am reminded once again on how my language (Indonesian) is very convenient sometimes in certain things when translating Buddhist texts. Indonesian has absorbed Sanskrit words in ancient times.

So monks (bhikkhu, bhiksu) is simply translated with the Indonesian word biksu. Nuns = biksuni. It’s already inputted to official dictionary.

Same things with other words from sanskrit. Rsi = resi. Ashram = asrama. Deva = dewa. Guru = guru.

In the other hand, there are many problems in translating other terms…. Indonesian is a young language, rooted in Malay, which is a trader language. It has relatively fewer words, and many borrowed words from various languages. When it comes to deeper philosophy, it stumbles a lot.

For example, Indonesian translators have no consensus on how to translate sati (mindfulness).

And Indonesian language also absorbed a lot of arab words, with its islamic worldview.

So spiritual translated as rohani. Roh = soul. Which is really not compatible with buddhist ideas.

Divine translated as ilahi. Ilah = god/ gods, in middle eastern religion. Also not compatible.

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But ironically, spiritual means exactly the same as ruhani. :smiley:

I’ve used Ilahi in my translations for Dibba/Brahma etc. too. For example, Brahmacariya or Dibbacakku, commonly translated as Holy/Spiritual Life and Divine Sight in English.

If we have to split hairs, Dibba could be translated to Radiant perhaps.

But Pāli uses quite a bit of divine portent figuratively, in the sense of Extraordinary, Sacred, so I suppose the same can be done in target languages. :slight_smile:

It isn’t that there’s no divinity in Pāli texts. It’s just they define such things differently from theistic traditions. :slight_smile:

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Some monastics in my community did alms round in Istanbul not long ago, and it was a big success. I think the people may have understood the similarity to dervishes and found it inspiring! However, the celibacy part they were apparently a bit perplexed by and not particularly interested in! In Italy, celibate monasticism is a major part of the Catholic culture, but it may be that in Islam it is less accepted even for the people with a more “mystical” focus (not sure how true this is). This isn’t directly related to your post, just more of an interesting compare/contrast culturally.

It’d be nice to spend time in Turkey in the future though! It seems like there could be a lot of potential for the Dhamma there. :slight_smile:

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I’ve read that celibacy and monasticism are considered a no-no and discouraged in Islam, with marriage being considered a duty to protect your purity. Someone might chime in and correct me if I’m wrong though!!

It is true. For the most part, Islam is like that - Traditional Islam is quite materialistic, considers it a duty to get married. Prophet Mohammed’s wife was a merchant even, trading is praised highly, etc.

By contrast, Mystic / Sufi strands of Islam (usually Persian / Shia influenced) were the ones practicing things like asceticism, poverty, celibacy, etc.

That’s one of the reasons why Sufism is considered borderline (or straightforward) heretical by mainstream Arabic Islam; and these materialist vs renunciate differences are explained with the Hindu influences.

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I missed the point that you compare ideals. Not knowing much about dervishes I thought you describe an average dervish who does as he likes, not caring about Islam doctrine. But since you say - or so I think you do - that this is not so, and they are quite orthodox or at least do obey some discipline within their own particular order, my post indeed wasn’t relevant.

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No worries, thanks you. And I’m sorry that I should’ve been more clear on the subject. :slight_smile:

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As an English speaker (and westerner) that’s the only kind of dervish I’m aware of. But obviously your translations aren’t for me.

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Heh. There are different Sufi groups - the Mevlevis are famous for the whirling rituals. There are others, Bektashis, Ismailis, etc… Can’t escape sectarianism. :smiley:

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Is a dervis someone who honors God? What of Who is God for a dervis? Does a dervis assume a will of God according which things happen in the world? Is God a kind of Judge after death? What is the worldview of a dervis?

Take for example christian mystics like Meister Eckhart and John of Cross, they also speak of enlightment and detachment, but their ideas about the world are also religious. For example, meister Eckhart taught that people do not have to worry if their illness is or it not the will of God. If it would not be Gods will, they would not be ill…he taught.

I feel such a person cannot be called bhikkhu. Such ideas are not buddhist. According the Pali sutta’s Buddha even critized such ideas that the pleasure and pains we experience are the result of Gods creative activity (AN3.61)

If a dervis has also such ideas, i would not translate bhikkhu with dervis.

I suppose you don’t know that the words Nun / Monk in English, and their cognates in French, Italian, Russian, etc, all come from the same Christian roots, the word that was applied exclusive to Christian monastics, even the word “Monastery” — or do you have a problem with these too? :slight_smile:

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Thing is you don’t need something to translate. You can just leave it as bhikkhu and make a footnote about it’s meaning when it appears for the first time in the text. And if you translate suttas that are browsed online etc., where there is no “first time in the text”, then the reader can simply just google/search what bhikkhu is if someone doesn’t know for the first time. If they browse suttas online, they can check the meaning too. The notion that every word must be translated is a choice, not a necessity. Bhikkhu Bodhi (pun intended) has chosen to leave some pali words untranslated and I personally like it.

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The problem is — why stop with bhikkhu? Why not leave dhamma, khandas, jhana, samadhi all untranslated? :slight_smile:

I’m of Bhikkhu Sujato’s school that “It is a translator’s job to translate.” Translations are incomplete, imperfect recounts, even as we do our best. Their purpose is to inform the readers in an idiomatic fashion what the source text is talking about. Otherwise we can just give people the Pāli texts and a dictionary — except that dictionary would also have to be in Pāli to be faithful… :smiley:

I certainly wouldn’t have bothered to read the suttas if the best I had available was “Bhikkhus, rupa is anicca. What is anicca is dukkha. What is dukkha is anatta.” even though that is the most coherent translation! :grin:

We shouldn’t expect any translation to cover the entire breadth of Dhamma, for that is not the purpose. The purpose is to get people walking through the door. Once inside, then they can start to learn the Pāli (or the Chinese, etc) and the nuances. And to that effect, I believe we should be uncompromising in our attempt to translate everything to the best of our abilities.

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Sure, it’s your choice and I’m cool with that. :slight_smile:

Bhikkhu Bodhi left only a few key words untranslated, like Bhikkhu, Dhamma, Nibbana, Jhana, and I think that’s it. It’s not like you will understand what these terms mean unless you study them anyway. I actually think translating especially Dhamma is usually pretty misleading.

Rupa, anicca, dukkha, anatta etc. are all translated by Bhikkhu Bodhi. 4 words untranslated for the entire canon is actually very few.

I’m not saying that non translation of some words school is better than translate all words school (even though I prefer the Bhikkhu Bodhi in this matter, while still appreciating translating all for additional insights). But if the word is particularly problematic in your language, then you can make a compromise.

I think dervis is a very heavy word culturally, so I would personally avoid that.

Sometimes if we go really deep into some topic, we lose seeing the forest for the trees. I personally think this is the case here. But hey, it’s your translation. :slight_smile: Be happy with whatever you do. :slight_smile:

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Exactly! It really isn’t just the shape of the singular word that’s going to be teaching, translated or otherwise. :slight_smile:

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