In the frame of early Buddhism, what is considered as sustaining mindfulness during the deep meditation, after thinking and examination and volition (including the aconceptual forms of those) have all disappeared? Is it sustained by bare consciousness (aggregate)? Is the mind in deep meditation undisturbed by conditions, perceptions and volitions the same as this consciousness?
Hi,
Regarding the title of your OP, there is no unconditioned awareness/mind/consciousness in the Nikāyas or Āgamas.
MN38: “For in many ways the Buddha has told us that consciousness is dependently originated, since without a cause, consciousness does not come to be.”
Regarding consciousness in deep meditation, free of thoughts, there is still perception and feeling, such as perception of light, feelings of peace and/or bliss. So there is no utterly “pure consciousness.” As in MN43: :“Feeling, perception, and consciousness—these things are mixed, not separate. And you can never completely disentangle them so as to describe the difference between them.”
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Unconditioned was probably a poor choice of word and could be replaced with “still” or “undisturbed”.
What I’m mostly trying to understand (I guess), is what constitutes mindfulness in those deep states, if the volition, direction of thought, examination or discerning of different elements of the experience isn’t active anymore. So if the perception and feelings and consciousness are present (even though not necessarily discernible), is mindfulness based on those, established through them, conditioned by them then?
Thanks for clarifying your point.
In these deep meditation states, the “doer” is no longer present, so there’s no mindfulness in the sense of any kind of effort to being aware. Nor is there any recollection as sati/mindfulness implies. But consciousness remains present, unless one enters in saññāvedayitanirodha, the temporary cessation of all experience, including consciousness.
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There’s different things as one gets deeper into the meditation.
1st to 4th Jhānas, according to classical Theravada would have their respective meditation object as the object the mind is aware of. Thinking and examination already ceased at 2nd Jhāna, but still object of mind is there.
According to EBT teachers, the object doesn’t have to be the initial object of meditation to get into the Jhānas.
The formless attainments has the object as their name implies. Infinite space, infinite consciousness, nothingness, and looking at the consciousness which perceives nothingness is neither perception nor non perception.
Then in cessation of perception and feeling, there’s no mind, so no mind object also.
In pure perception of nibbāna, the object is nibbāna itself. Some may actually look at the consciousness there and think that’s unconditioned consciousness, but it’s not actually unconditioned.
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Do the suttas ever talk about using an “object” to get into the jhanas?
Hi @Spruce - it can’t be understood 
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The sutta on the mindfulness of breathing interpreted by ajahn brahm is using breath as an initial object and at step 12, liberating the mind is to go into the Jhāna.
Anyway, most of the formulas on the Jhānas don’t emphasize on object, just remove hindrances as the immediate step prior. So my teacher, Bhante Ariyadhammika says object not as important as the factors of Jhānas to qualify as Jhānas.
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If you understand the ins and outs, you’ll know how to practice buddhism.
The sutra teaches us that Contact is the root of suffering.
Contact refers to the confluence of :
(1) Internal Sense Organ: (e.g., the eye)
(2) External Sense Object: (e.g., a visual form)
(3) Consciousness: (e.g., eye-consciousness)
When these three meet, contact occurs.
Dukkhasamudayasutta, SN 35.106
And what, mendicants, is the origin of suffering? Eye consciousness arises dependent on the eye and sights. The meeting of the three is contact. Contact is a requirement for feeling. Feeling is a requirement for craving. This is the origin of suffering …Mind consciousness arises dependent on the mind and ideas. The meeting of the three is contact. Contact is a requirement for feeling. Feeling is a requirement for craving. This is the origin of suffering.
SuttaCentral
To prevent contact from occurring, the Buddha teaches us to detach from the six sense organs.
Pahānasutta, SN 35.24
The eye should be given up…
The ear … nose … tongue … body … mind should be given up.
SuttaCentral
Detachment from the six sense organs can be achieved through concentrating on the nimitta of our own mind.
Saṁyukt āgama, SA 616
當取自心相，莫令外散…
不取自心相 而取外相，然後退減，自生障閡。
One should grasp the nimitta of his own mind, instead of clinging to external sense objects…
If one does not grasp the nimitta of his own mind but instead grasps external objects, then decline will occur, and obstacles will arise spontaneously.
SuttaCentralSūdasutta, SN 47.8
…Because, bhikkhus, that foolish, incompetent, unskilful bhikkhu does not pick up the sign of his own mind (cittassa nimittaṃ).
…Because, bhikkhus, that wise, competent, skilful bhikkhu picks up the sign of his own mind (cittassa nimittaṃ).
SuttaCentral
Many people mistakenly believe that cittassa nimittaṃ is our thoughts, and therefore pay attention to their thoughts during meditation. In meditation, confusing cittassa nimittaṃ with thoughts is a common pitfall that often hinders progress.
Thoughts belong to “aggregate” , therefore they should not be the object of concentration during meditation. It is difficult to describe exactly what the nimitta of our mind looks like in words, because it is unconditioned.
This scripture teaches people not to meditate dependent on anything that can be perceived by the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind.
Instead, we should meditate dependent on cittassa nimittaṃ, which cannot be perceived by the six sense organs.
That is, when meditating one should practice how to open the eye of wisdom in order to use it to focus on cittassa nimittaṃ. Because cittassa nimittaṃ can only be detected by the eye of wisdom.
Yet this can be experienced and perceived as form, perception, feeling, volition, consciousness, right? Meditation directed at the mind nimitta is still dependent on will and is also experienced through perception, feeling, and consciousness, isn’t it? If the meditation then proceeds into letting go of will, letting go of perception and feeling and consciousness, i.e. letting go of all intentional observation and recollection of these aspects of meditative experience, and yet there’s still awareness present, what is this awareness dependent upon? Initially I thought that one should be able to clearly understand the constituents of such meditative experiences, but perhaps this is not so… It’s a bit tricky to pinpoint exactly what aspects of meditation are food for wisdom and what are not.
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This is a gross misinterpretation to regard something perceived by the mind as not perceived by the mind.
The nimitta of the mind is commonly used as a precursor to absorption Jhānas. To mistakenly put nimitta as equal to nibbāna is to possibly mistaken Jhānas as Nibbāna, which is one of the wrong views mentioned in DN1.
However lofty nimitta, Jhānas are, they are still not unconditioned.
Contact is suffering, so yes, even for arahants, meditating on nibbāna itself, that too is contact of the mind to nibbāna, still considered as a form of suffering compared to parinibbāna, wherein there’s no body, no mind, no contact, therefore no suffering.
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You said that the nimitta of the mind can be perceived by the mind;
from your statement, I surmise that you are mistakenly interpreting the nimitta of the mind as “thoughts”.
In meditation, being mindful of the rise and fall of thoughts doesn’t mean that you are focusing on the “cittassa nimittaṃ”.
The statement that “Cittassa nimittaṃ” can be perceived by the mind is without any sutra basis. No sutra ever says that.
According to the Saṁyukt āgama [SA 616] I posted previously, it’s obvious that Cittassa nimittaṃ doesn’t belong to “external sense objects”. This is evidence that ** Cittassa nimittaṃ** cannot be perceived by the six sense bases .
I personally think doing those analyses is unhelpful.
According to the following scripture, the key in Buddhist practice lies in severing our dependence on the six sense organs.
This is usually achieved through meditation.
As far as I know, the way to do it is to practice concentration on cittassa nimittaṃ
Māgaṇḍiyasuttaniddesa, Mnd 9
Taṇhānissayaṃ pahāya diṭṭhinissayaṃ paṭinissajjitvā cakkhuṃ anissāya, sotaṃ anissāya, ghānaṃ anissāya, jivhaṃ anissāya, kāyaṃ anissāya, manaṃ anissāyaHaving abandoned the dependence on craving (thirst/desire), and having relinquished the dependence on views, one is no longer attached to the eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind indriyas.
SuttaCentral
How I currently understand it, is that one can only temporarily subdue such forms of dependence through meditation (whether jhanas have been present or not). So the practitioner still needs wisdom to abandon those forms of dependence more fully. And for wisdom to occur, one needs to understand the core teachings more deeply, and also develop dispassion while reflecting those teachings. And meditation is necessary for this, both as a calming and energizing practice and also as a basis for reflection (i.e. reflection during the liminal states before and after jhanas).
That is not how I’ve heard, read and understood the teachings as a whole, nor does your description kindle any sense of clarity or insight regarding the dhamma. But I do wish you well and hope you’ll encounter many opportunities to hear and attend to the teachings from the wise.
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