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Type of avijja and cause of samsara?

i read in another forum , there were two type of avijja , asava of avijja and fetter of avijja ? Can these be found in the suttas ? Does sutta state that the cause of samsara is due to kamma ? Therefore one has to stop make kamma .

Thanks

Not two types, but two views of the same thing. It could be likened to a cancer on a person’s body (asava), and a doctor actively looking at an x-ray of the cancer and deciding how to remove it (fetter).
MN 2 lists methods for removal and shows that removing the asavas, removes the fetters:

“Bhikkhus! If a bhikkhu, has removed through vision the āsavas that should be removed through vision, has removed through restraint the āsavas that should be removed through restraint, has removed through proper use of requisites the āsavas that should be removed through proper use of requisites, has removed through forbearance the āsavas that should be removed through forbearance, has removed through avoidance the āsavas that should be removed through avoidance, has removed through rejection the āsavas that should be removed through rejection, has removed through cultivation the āsavas that should be removed through cultivation, he is said to be one who abides in the restraint of all āsavas. He has cut off craving, shaken off fetters and having become fully aware of [the nature of] self-conceit,[45] has made an end of dukkha.”

The stages of abandoning the fetters are four, and although ignorance is the last fetter, it is progressively abandoned throughout the ten:

'There are in this community of monks, monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three Fetters, are Stream-winners, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening…

'There are… monks who, with the total ending of [the first] three fetters and the waning of passion, aversion, & delusion, are Once-returners. After returning only once to this world they will put an end to stress…

'There are… monks who, with the total ending of the first five Fetters, are due to be reborn [in the Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from that world…

‘There are… monks who are Arahants, whose effluents are ended, who have reached fulfillment, done the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who are released through right gnosis.’—MN 118

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Thanks Paul . I wonder if the suttas ever state avijja consist of gross and subtle forms ? And could one say to end kamma route is to end samsara ?

There are five lower fetters or gross and five higher or more subtle, and that’s why I said ignorance is progressively removed. The first five bind to the sensuous world, and the latter five bind to the fine-material and immaterial worlds (see 31 planes of existence). I prefer to look at release through the fetters as it is practically described, so will not take up the kamma question. Most practitioners would probably be dealing with the five lower fetters and the first thing to establish is to what extent one is subject to doubt, relying on rites and rituals, to what extent one is influenced by identity-view, and progress in removal of desire or ill-will depending on temperament. The first type of ignorance to be overcome through contemplation of experience is the understanding that ordinary life is suffering, not pleasure as is commonly thought and promulgated. The second form of overcoming of ignorance involves investigation of the results of actions, and knowing whether they lead to suffering or release (‘Two Types of Thinking,’ MN 19).

"There are these ten fetters. Which ten? Five lower fetters & five higher fetters. And which are the five lower fetters? Self-identity views, uncertainty, grasping at precepts & practices, sensual desire, & ill will. These are the five lower fetters. And which are the five higher fetters? Passion for form, passion for what is formless, conceit, restlessness, & ignorance. These are the five higher fetters. And these are the ten fetters.”—-AN 10.13

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Thanks for the effort but it does not answer the (avijja) question .

Hi Gene, perhaps it helps to know that in terms of dependent origination avijja refers specifically to “ignorance of the 4 noble truths”. In my opinion there’s no distinction in this avijja between gross & subtle - until one enters stages of enlightenment which cause the previously consistently gross avijja to become more subtle at each stage.

An arahant has ceased to create new kamma, but remains subject to old resultant kamma, though it is less strongly experienced. A classic example given is Angulimala, the former serial killer, who had earned eons in hell which his awakening has prevented, yet even after he became an arahant his old kamma continued to cause him to get beat up by angry mobs.

It seems backwards to try to end Samsara by ending kamma. Every intentional action by a non-enlightened person generates good or bad kamma, so there’s no end to anything by pursuing the end of kamma.

We received from the Buddha the path to end Samsara, which with the arising of full awakening stops one from generating any new kamma, and at parinibbana finally brings an end to any lingering resultant kamma.

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AN4.45 & also see SN2.26
“I tell you, friend, that it is not possible by traveling to know or see or reach a far end of the cosmos where one does not take birth, age, die, pass away, or reappear. But at the same time, I tell you that there is no making an end of suffering & stress without reaching the end of the cosmos. Yet it is just within this fathom-long body, with its perception & intellect, that I declare that there is the cosmos, the origination of the cosmos, the cessation of the cosmos, and the path of practice leading to the cessation of the cosmos.”

In practice beings often have a mixture of gross and subtle avijja. The gross constitutes the fetters that are restricting them, and the subtle their aspirations. For example the fine-material realm is higher than the sensuous realm, so having a passion for refined form (higher avijja) is a legitimate and advised step upwards. This would apply in the case of artists or jhana practitioners. This is seen in traditional Buddhist cultures where the religion and arts are closely allied for the reason they assist each other. That person still has nibbana as the goal, but have a realistic understanding of their present position and what must be done to advance.

Yes you are quite right, in that there are distinctions in wisdom and purity among beings who have not yet entered the stream.

Yet I had something else in mind, the profound distinction between those who have attained a stage of awakening versus all beings still sunk in wrong view including the highest gods. Consider the simile of the dirt beneath the Buddha’s fingernail vs the dirt of a mountain, representing the amount of suffering remaining at stream entry versus the suffering remaining for ordinary beings - including gods and others of high mundane wisdom.

This is explained in more detail in the Samyukta Agama on the simile of the Tip of a Hair (simile of the pond), specifically addressing the difference of a stream enterer from someone holding wrong view regarding self even though attaining kasinas.

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