Well yes, for me it is very interesting to understand Pāli terms, and it seems significant to define their semantic range, in order to understand the doctrine.
In the quest for understanding the semantic range of a word, it also seems important to me to see how the word is applied. @Mat seemed to be applying dukkha to the experience of arahants even though he could apparently produce no single example of any EBT appling the term dukkha to the experience of arahants, and to me this makes the case for applying dukkha to the experience of arahants very weak.
That is to say, I felt an investigation of the term dukkha and whether it applies to arahants required two main things:
- investigation of the semantic range of dukkha as used in the EBT’s in context.
- investigation of whether arahants are said to have dukkha, or to be free from dukkha.
This is great - finally an argument about dukkha which actually refers to a text discussing dukkha! Thanks.
I have to say I’m surprised by this. It implies that to overcome dukkha, we have to have no vedanā at all. This seems to be quite a different doctrine to that found in the Noble Eightfold Path. Can anyone shed light on this? Is this quote from a sutta known to be later? Is there understanding on this matter, such as a known conflict in the EBT’s? What does standard Theravada doctrine say - does it say all vedanā is dukkha?
Also please note that later in this sutta we have:
For someone who has attained the cessation of perception and feeling, perception and feeling have ceased.
Saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ
samāpannassa saññā ca vedanā ca niruddhā honti.
If we take the first part literally, that ‘Suffering includes whatever is felt’, then it follows that the way to end dukkha is through the immaterial absorption ‘the cessation of perception and feeling’. If this is so, then how do you explain why ‘the cessation of perception and feeling’ is not part of the Noble Eightfold Path, that very path that is the path to the end of dukkha? This would seem to be a most critical question.
Perhaps there were two opposing views int he early community:
- That the 4 jhānas were necessary for overcoming dukkha.
- That the immaterial attainments were, in addition to jhāna, necessary for overcoming dukkha.
If this is the case, then the idea of vedanā being dukkha could come from the second camp. This would be a very good reason why to label immaterial practice as necessary. And conversely, if vedanā is not inherently dukkha, then that could be part of the reasoning as to why it is not necessary to attain a state where there is no vedanā.
It was my impression that the majority of the canon expressed the firt view, that immaterial practice is an optional extra.
Now another thing to consider:
I offer a possible resolution. It may be that usually, vedanā gives rise to dukkha (as emotional suffering) due to vedanā being impermanent. Usually that emotionally disturbs people. Of course not all the time - the impermanance of negative feelings can actually lead to happiness, such as:
Suppose there was a lotus pond with clear, sweet, cool water, clean, with smooth banks, delightful.
Seyyathāpi, bho, pokkharaṇī acchodakā sātodakā sītodakā setakā supatitthā ramaṇīyā.Then along comes a person struggling in the oppressive heat, weary, thirsty, and parched .
Atha puriso āgaccheyya ghammābhitatto ghammapareto kilanto tasito pipāsito.They’d plunge into the lotus pond to bathe and drink. And all their stress, weariness, and heat exhaustion would die down.
So taṃ pokkharaṇiṃ ogāhetvā nhātvā ca pivitvā ca sabbadarathakilamathapariḷāhaṃ paṭippassambheyya.In the same way, when you hear the ascetic Gotama’s teaching—
Evamevaṃ kho, bho, yato yato tassa bhoto gotamassa dhammaṃ suṇāti—whatever it may be, whether statements, songs, discussions, or amazing stories—
yadi suttaso, yadi geyyaso, yadi veyyākaraṇaso, yadi abbhutadhammaso—then all your stress, weariness, and exhaustion die down.”
tato tato sabbadarathakilamathapariḷāhā paṭippassambhantī”ti.
This is a good example of the happiness we can get from the fading away of negative feelings, unpleasant vedanā.
So, the impermanent nature of vedanā sometimes causes sukha. But yes, generally speaking, the impermanent nature of vedanā can cause us dukkha.
However, I would suggest that it doesn’t have to. That an arahant can experience vedanā and not be tripped out by its impermanence.
If we examine a moment of vedana, while that vedana is existing, then what is the revelevance of its impermanence? Well, its impermanence only exists relative to extended time. Only when we examine a timeline, do we see arising and passing away. That is to say, it requires a time sequence.
If you have a nice feeling, you can be tripped out by knowing it will end. You can also be tripped out the moment it ends. And you can still be tripping out about it after it ended.
But what if you stop all mental profileration? Well, you won’t be tripping out about the fact that it will end in the future, if you are not thinking about the future. Similarly, you will not be tripping out about ones that have ended, if you are not thinking about the past! So we are left only with the present. So supposing right now a nice vedana is ending. Well, that will only be experienced as negative if there is comparison going on. And for that, you have to leave the present moment, or at least refer to the past in order to compare.
So you see, if you stay only in the present moment, then even the impermanent nature of vedana should not be any problem at all.
And so consider the Buddha’s teachings, or being present, of disengaging from thoughts of the past and future. While walking, just walk. While sitting, just sit, and so on.
So then, suppose that this teaching is refering to the normal situation. And suppose also that it is a teaching pointing us to observe our minds at a fine resolution. Not at the gross level of missing friends, wanting to do this and that in future and so on. Rather the fine level moment to moment arising of vedana, which is a process that occurs far far before any of those far more complex processes of the mind such as memory, decision making and so on. It’s right there at the moment to moment level of vedana, that we react. We react to the vedana. Including our reaction to the impermanence of vedana. And we make so much suffering for ourselves in that process.
Perhaps the state of ‘the cessation of perception and feeling’ is useful to give us a new perspective on our experience of vedana. Perhaps it can help rearrange our relationship to the experience of having vedana. Perhaps take them less personally, for example. Anyhow, if we say do take the meaning against which I have just argued, namely that literally all experience of vedanā is dukkha, then we have to say that the Buddha’s life was permeated by dukkha - how comfortable do you feel with such a statement? The only other alternative for holders of that view would seem to be that the Buddha experienced no vedanā, which would seem quite absurd.
Wonderful, thank you for another example that actually includes the term dukkha! Interesting.
Now, you have given Sujato’s translation. Here is Thanissaro’s:
the stressfulness of pain, the stressfulness of fabrication, the stressfulness of change.
So we have ‘of’ vs. ‘inherent in’. Let’s look at the PED entry for dukkhatā:
state of pain, painfulness, discomfort, pain
So basically, the state of dukkha. Perhaps more useful to leave dukkha untranslated just now.
I am not sure how justified ‘inherent in’ is. Does any Pāli reader have an opinion on this? Is it not just a standard tappurisa compound, which would be taken to mean, in the case of dukkhadukkhatā, basically ‘dukkhatā of dukkha’? For this reason Thanissaro’s translation seems more in line with my understanding of the Pāli.
So if we follow Thanissaro and my understanding of the grammar and the PED’s take on ‘state of’, it looks to me that we have basically:
- The state of dukka… let’s say the ‘dukkha-ness’ of dukka
- The dukkha-ness of saṅkhāra
- The dukkha-ness of vipariṇāma
Now, this is a difference from saying that dukkha-ness is inherent in those three things, do you see? No I don’t know if they actually are inherent or not. But my reading allows for the potential that this is referring to 3 types of dukkha, but not necessarily saying that those three things cannot be experienced without dukkha arising. It may be that those are the three usual sources which trigger our dukkha. But, through the training of the Noble EIghtfold Path, it’s possible to eliminate all dukkha, even without eliminating all saṅkhāras and so on.
What do you think?
This is a great quote. I wonder if he is languaging it like that because everyone around him was not realising that dukkha is separate from phenomena experienced in the world. Everyone feels emotional pain in conjuction with negative sensory affects, or hearing abusive words aimed at them etc. So perhaps they think that, for example, painful physical feelings are inherently causing emotional suffering.
But the Buddha carefully separated those out. He gave the arrow teaching for example, to show how the emotional suffering actually occurs after the physical pain.
And here he seems to be pointing out that same thing - that it’s a two step process, and we are able to actually remove the second step:
I suggest this may be saying that they experience the sensory affect of the vedana (or we might even define vedana as that), but there is no emotional affect.
[Oh, I just looked up the source and found that this actually is the sutta about the two arrows!]
If we consider the Four Noble Truths and the various other teachings on the subject to mean that the Noble Eightfold Path does in fact lead to the end of dukkha in this life, then this sutta above may be telling us dukkha, as negative emotional affect, is overcome; but negative sensory affect is not overcome. Because the chain has been broken, which usually makes negative sensory affect (kāyikaṃ) lead to negative emotional affect (cetasikaṃ).
Now, let’s go back to:
Dukkhadukkhatā, saṅkhāradukkhatā, vipariṇāmadukkhatā
One thing this seems to tell me is that there are (at least) two meanings for the term dukkha. This is implied by the term dukkhadukkhatā - and what this suggests to me is that there is a common term, and a specialised technical term.
MN 141 tells us:
And what is pain?
Katamañcāvuso, dukkhaṃ?Physical pain, physical displeasure, the painful, unpleasant feeling that’s born from physical contact.
Yaṃ kho, āvuso, kāyikaṃ dukkhaṃ kāyikaṃ asātaṃ kāyasamphassajaṃ dukkhaṃ asātaṃ vedayitaṃ,This is called pain.
idaṃ vuccatāvuso: ‘dukkhaṃ’.
Please note that this description is actually entirely devoid of emotoinal content, and is referring to negative sensory affect.
Now, we know that the Noble Eightfold Path leads to the end of dukkha, by way of eliminating taṇha. We also know that eliminating taṇha is possible while alive. AN 3.33:
When a mendicant has no ego, possessiveness, or underlying tendency to conceit for this conscious body; and no ego, possessiveness, or underlying tendency to conceit for all external stimuli; and they live having attained the freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom where ego, possessiveness, and underlying tendency to conceit are no more—
Yato ca kho,
sāriputta, bhikkhuno imasmiñca saviññāṇake kāye ahaṅkāramamaṅkāramānānusayā na honti, bahiddhā ca sabbanimittesu ahaṅkāramamaṅkāramānānusayā na honti, yañca cetovimuttiṃ paññāvimuttiṃ upasampajja viharato ahaṅkāramamaṅkāramānānusayā na honti tañca cetovimuttiṃ paññāvimuttiṃ upasampajja viharati;they’re called
ayaṃ vuccati, sāriputta:a mendicant who has cut off craving, untied the fetters, and by rightly comprehending conceit has made an end of suffering.
‘bhikkhu acchecchi taṇhaṃ, vivattayi saṃyojanaṃ, sammā mānābhisamayā antamakāsi dukkhassa’.
And yet, we also know well that arahants can experience pain - negative sensory affect. Now, how can that be, when dukkha was defined as “Physical pain”? How about my suggestion, based on the evidence of the term dukkhadukkhatā, that there are two meanings for this term - general, and technical?
I propose that the general meaning may be that associated normally with ‘suffering’, such as obviously ‘painful’ things. But that the point is, the Buddha is pointing out that in fact what we usually experience as ‘pain’ is a compound phenomena, with both ‘body’ (sensory affect) and ‘mind’/‘heart’ (emotional affect) elements, the latter of which actually occurs later in the time sequence. Those all naturally include negative emotional affect for ordinary people. And so they are easy images for bringing to our mind the torment of suffering. (As a side note, it was not until my first meditation retreat that I realised that, to use my simple English terms, ‘suffering’ and ‘pain’ are not synonymous! For the first time, I experienced strong physical pain in the total absense of negative emotional affect. I just saw the pain clearly, and it was interesting, but I totally let go of all resistance, and saw clearly that there was no ‘suffering’. Only pain, which was totally ok! I assume that’s what was meant in the sutta about the two arrows).
In this case, dukkhadukkhatā could mean something like: ‘the state of negative emotional affect associated with ordinarily painful things.’
So, the dukkha that he says the Four Noble Truths eliminates, is actually the mind/heart element (emotional affect), not the body element (sensory affect). This seems to be clearly laid out in the sutta about the arrows, as we discussed above. So this is I suggest is the technical meaning of dukkha. And this would seem to explain why, although arahants have pain - have daratha - (please see my post on this for more discussion about this term and the difference with dukkha: Arahants have no dukkha, but apparently have daratha - negative sensory/homeostatic affect? ), they are (apparently) never referred to as having dukkha, in the EBT’s. Since they obviously do have pain, I suggest that the reason why they are never said to have dukkha is because although that might fit for the ordinary term, their experience of dukkha in that ordinary sense is totally different to ordinary people, because it lacks the negative emotional affect that is usually included. And to save confusion that the dukkha would be taken in the technical sense of the word, as the dukkha which the Noble Eighfold Path eliminates (negative emotional affect according to my proposal), the word is never applied to them. That is to say, the EBT’s keep to the technical meaning of dukkha when discussing arahants.
@sujato I am sure that you might be too busy to want to enter this discussion, but I find this very interesting and I think you might too - I hope it’s not rude to tag you. I am not sure about this, but have been finding it very interesting to explore the discrimination between sensory and emotional affect in the EBT’s, as well as cognitive vs. affective discrimination. I would be very interested if you would wish to share you opinion on this topic! I am not sure about dukkha but this is my reasoning so far at least.