It seems these collections are relevant to the early Buddhist adaptation of Indian religious myths. It will be good to see a comparison of the Agama and Pali versions.
I have a question .
It seems you accept under ebt labeling that human do have supernatural powers , but then because supernatural powers of warm clouds and cold clouds deities appears in opposed to our limited thinking and scientific knowledge , therefore we ruled out the possibility of it .
One of my posts above was flagged, I’d like to apologize whoever the people felt bad about it.
I think the problem was the imoji. I do not use them much.
However, I think the point I made is still valuable and I am going to make it more clearer.
Santi, bhikkhu, sītavalāhakā nāma devā
Bhikkus, there are gods named as gods of cold clouds
Devas mentioned in the suttas are not just conceptual. First few suttas say how a person be born in those deva nikayas which make it sure of that they really exist.
If these suttas really delivered by the buddha, then the gods must be real. The buddha is not a teacher who gives whatever the listeners want, but he give the right thing and the truth where they might or might not accept it. For an example MN 1.
The buddha explained what are the ways of speech that the buddha uses to teach his listeners inMN 58.
You should be addressing Robbie over this question, not me. (?)
Sorry bhante (not you) I am just pointing out the logics behind the statement if anyone in doubt .
And if these suttas were not delivered by the buddha?
Not really. It’s the sort of sutta where one would hope that the commentaries would have something interesting to say, but where they in fact turn out to be gloriously uninformative, confining themselves to word glosses and brief remarks on points of grammar.
One indication of the purpose can be seen in the subsequent suttas in the vagga, which are teachings on the kind of action that leads to rebirth as one of these species of deva. So the purpose, it would seem, is to satisfy those Buddhists who cherish the unusual aspiration of becoming weather gods.
Note : Kokanadā is rains god Pajjunna’s daughter .
Then, late at night, the beautiful Kokanadā the Younger, Pajjunna’s daughter, lighting up the entire Great Wood, went up to the Buddha, bowed, stood to one side, and recited these verses in the Buddha’s presence:
You should never do anything bad
by speech or mind or body in all the world.
Having given up sensual pleasures, mindful and aware,
you shouldn’t keep doing what’s painful and pointless.”
Is it the Chinese version that says Kokanadā is a Rains God?
You are right bhante .
An5.197 Obstacles to Rain
Mendicants, there are these five obstacles to rain, which the forecasters don’t know, and which their vision does not traverse. What five?
In the upper atmosphere the fire element flares up, which disperses the clouds. This is the first obstacle to rain, which the forecasters don’t know, and which their vision does not traverse.
Furthermore, in the upper atmosphere the air element flares up, which disperses the clouds. This is the second obstacle to rain …
Furthermore, Rāhu, lord of demons, receives water in his hand and tosses it in the ocean. This is the third obstacle to rain …
Furthermore, the gods of the rain clouds become negligent. This is the fourth obstacle to rain …
Furthermore, humans become unprincipled. This is the fifth obstacle to rain, which the forecasters don’t know, and which their vision does not traverse.
These are the five obstacles to rain, which the forecasters don’t know, and which their vision does not traverse.”
Thank you so much for pointing out the sutta, it has some valuable information to suggest that second assumption is correct.
Bhante , this is a story . I knew a relative , she can read minds , telepathic and she is able to “see” different dimensions beings to the rupa loka , so , this is natural for her but this is outside our scope and ebt .
Take it as a dessert .
I’d like to share a story that I read from an old book by Ven. P. Buddhadatta Mahatero.
Once in early 19th century, there was a rumor that the world is come to an end. Then people were so scared and they were into dhamma practice more than ever.
As a result within a few months the weather was better, rain fall was in right amount, and then the environment was optimal to plants resulting very high yields from almost all the crops.
I’m sorry but in the end you come to the conclusions you seemed to have had in the beginning:
- The suttas are the words of the Buddha
- the words of the Buddha are perfect and true
Both are an expression of faith. Which is of course okay, but the implication that the suttas prove that there are gods or that people can fly or walk on water is simply not true.
It’s a fact that the suttas say these things, but the facts don’t go beyond that. I don’t know if and how these gods exist, but cartainly the suttas don’t provide any sort of proof.
I’m just allergic to religions spreading pseudo-science. It had real-life implications and still has.
I am not that certain about 1st one. It has been over 2500 years where the bhikkus of our lineage (started with aññā Kondañña) faced number of problems; famines like baminitiyasaya, floods and numer of natural disasters, Influenced from other religions, faced carnages in number of wars such as the war by mogals etc. So I do not believe the tepitaka had no changes over time, there may be number of changes, additions deletions, etc in tepitaka. Some of these suttas and Vinaya texts may be completely originated after the buddha.
They had their reasons to make new theories some of them are not conflicting with the original teaching and some of them are. I have read number of studies about Buddhist sects in India and Sri Lanka.
Of cause it is my faith, that is exactly why I ordained in this Buddhasāsana. As I already made it clear about your 1st fact I would now address the second.
The words of the Buddha are perfect and true
I really have faith on the buddhas words. That doesn’t mean that I believe what ever in the tepitaka is the buddha’s teachings.
If the buddha said it is true and perfect.
musāvādaṃ pahāya musāvādā paṭivirato samaṇo gotamo kālavādī bhūtavādī atthavādī dhammavādī vinayavādī, nidhānavatiṃ vācaṃ bhāsitā kālena sāpadesaṃ pariyantavatiṃ atthasaṃhita’nti (MN1).
That is why I am here to practice the way he tought to achieve Nibbāna.
I do not just believe anything just because it is in the suttas. The buddha’s advice was the same. We got four great references to compare what ever the teaching is available. I value being doubtful, that is the shield that keeps you protected from being fooled by your own judgements and influences from others. Some would argue the eight noble path is to get rid of doubt (vichikicca), here I am not talking about that. I am talking about the practical stuation. And also we have hatthipadopamā to come into conclutions.
Buddhism is not one of them, perhaps the most reliable religion in that sense; even with all the later implications.
As long as a person looking for freedom from the samsāra this is the only path to follow.
ākāseva padaṃ natthi, samaṇo natthi bāhire
There is no footprint in the sky, there is no ascetic on the outside
see also Culasihanadasutta.
dhammadīpā dhammasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā.
Doesn’t matter if you believe in god or something else, you can practice the path and at some point you will realize what really is the truth.
If someone has faith on god the creator, still he can practice the path. He can see this path as a way of fooling the god.
If someone believes in brahman, he can really go to brahman with the way explained in subha sutta MN 99.
This is the religion of freedom where you get something to do with your free will. Of cause you already know, thats why you are here.
The Buddha says they should be their own refuge, grounded on the four kinds of mindfulness meditation.
attadīpā viharatha attasaraṇā anaññasaraṇā
Tumhehi kiccamātappaṃ, akkhātāro tathāgatā
You yourselves must strive; the Buddhas only point the way
Something we are not certain or do not really know , then the sensible saying is we do not know . If we Disbelieve something and says it is Not True then that is not really sensible . There is one thing so called nibbana does rely on Faith otherwise one would not walk on this path .
“Iti kho, bhikkhave, avijjūpanisā saṅkhārā, saṅkhārūpanisaṃ viññāṇaṃ, viññāṇūpanisaṃ nāmarūpaṃ, nāmarūpūpanisaṃ saḷāyatanaṃ, saḷāyatanūpaniso phasso, phassūpanisā vedanā, vedanūpanisā taṇhā, taṇhūpanisaṃ upādānaṃ, upādānūpaniso bhavo, bhavūpanisā jāti, jātūpanisaṃ dukkhaṃ, dukkhūpanisā saddhā, saddhūpanisaṃ pāmojjaṃ, pāmojjūpanisā pīti, pītūpanisā passaddhi, passaddhūpanisaṃ sukhaṃ, sukhūpaniso samādhi, samādhūpanisaṃ yathābhūtañāṇadassanaṃ, yathābhūtañāṇadassanūpanisā nibbidā, nibbidūpaniso virāgo, virāgūpanisā vimutti, vimuttūpanisaṃ khayeñāṇaṃ. SN 12.23