SuttaCentral

Valāhakā Devā, who are deities of the weather controlling the clouds

And luckily one doesn’t need faith in the weather gods in order to follow the dhamma!

Unless you aspire to join the weather gods…

or maybe meet some cool devas aren’t mentioned very often in the majority of the Pali canon and see if they really do influence the weather and don’t notice us.

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Actually , one would need a little faith in the case of existence of kama loka & jhana , rupa loka & jhana and arupa loka & jhana . If one do accept or believe in kama loka & jhana then obviously one certainly unable to escape the logics behind it that there are at least six type of kama loka with its inhabitants or could you ?

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You need faith in the loka and rebirth, not the kinds of beings that inhabit it.

I thought a simple answer. Take Liechtenstein as an example, it’s a tiny country that exist in central Europe. I know Europe exists and there are many countries in Europe, and Liechtenstein is a part of Europe (whether I know it or not) and if I believe Liechtenstein is a country or not doesn’t matter if I want to move to Europe. If I know it exists then I know there are Liechtensteiners, I may not know anything about them except they are there. However if I don’t know they exist then does it really matter if my only goal is to get to Europe? You may be driving from Germany to Switzerland and happen to pass through the country and discover it. Of course if I really want to meet a Liechtensteiner and learn about them and their culture then I should probably know they exist and know where to find Liechtenstein!

It’s the same with the realms that take faith. I can believe in the deva realm and then not be sure if the weather gods are exist or not, but then I may get to the deva realm either through fortunate rebirth or meditation and happen upon them or I can believe they exist and seek them out. I hope I did not oversimplify the idea that you can know a broad area exists and you don’t need faith or knowledge about the specific inhabitants of that area, but that’s my general logic.

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Now the thread is diverted from the topic however, I think there is no problem with that because the thread is about something related to faith.

The ending of defilements comes only when the truth is seen. But seeing the truth comes about due to a vital condition. In this way, twelve factors leading to freedom are united with the twelve factors leading to suffering (SN 12.23).

To enter the path you really need the faith; a vital factor to the path.
Some people get into the path believing there are hells where we have to suffer a lot for a limitlessly longer periods.
I think one should rather pay his attention on the suffering which is visible; that he feel right now. He should understand how uneasy his mind is when a kelesa arises. He should understand how hard it is to achieve his desires, how hard it is to deal with anger. He should see present dukkha, to create faith over the path and nibbāna.
Then it really doesn’t matter whether there are hells or other realms or not. One should search an anwer to a problem he know and understands rather than finding answers to imaginary problem of suffering in hell.
The bodhisatta went searching to a problem he saw in his life, not afterlife.

Having said that, it is important to note that a point made above which I think is very important.

If someone wants to see how brahma loka is he has to achieve jhānas, when he is in jhāna he can experience how brahmaloka would be. Similarly when a mind become subtle and subtle he can reach the levels of devas in this particular life, not the sensual pleasures obviously but the state of mind.
To be born in a particular realm he should have a mind with a similar state with the realm when he dies.
This is just my understanding about realms.
There are 31 realms and in this life as a human you have a chance to experience states of minds from devas and brahmas with meditation.
When someone is in moha dosa raga or kodha etc he could feel how evil works and how bad it is to be born in lower a realm. But it would be very hard to imagine the suffering in those realms, you can atleast see Animal realm.

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The suttas (or early Buddhist texts) are ‘not’ the words of the Buddha. They are just texts, some early, some later compilations. The Buddha himself also does not allow anyone to use any particular language for his words of teaching; individuals are welcome to use their languages to understand the teachings of the Buddha. It is therefore early Buddhism (or Buddhism as a whole) has developed different textual languages and collections.

The words of the Buddha do not really exist in history. But, one can seek an understanding of early Buddhist teachings by studying the early Buddhist texts comparatively. Note: all early Buddhist texts are sectarian texts.

Note that I already addressed this in post 37 or somewhere. So, I don’t get the point you are trying to make(?).

The suttas are considered as words of the Buddha through which the disciples passed down . The variation and later addition is another matter .

Remember to stick to the O P topic please :slightly_smiling_face:
You can always open another thread to discuss any off-shoot topic. :pray:

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What is the meaning of O P here?

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Opening Post.

Metta :slightly_smiling_face:

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Many thanks! :slightly_smiling_face:

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What would it mean to have seen cloudmonks meditating, several distinct figures, spread across half a circle, yet distanced along the horizon. Not much other clouds around. Retaining form and posistion for a really Long time.

Who are they?

Hahaha imagination?

Felt amazing, in peace, loss of worry. I do have a really good imagination, its not unlikely for me to have a imagination released real measurable positive effect.

I had euphoric rushes for a day after drawing recently, imagining i am drawing me from the inside while the drawing it self draws too, 5 hours later i have been the paper, pencil, drawing, me, an observer and nothing at all, gone, back. I guess that floats my boat.

Cloud experience, truth is that it was impactfull and has stuck as one of my most memorable moment in life. Thats some Nice clouds. But when i read some things about Cloud People here it seemed to have a connection. I dont need a affirmation of faith, altough it would be interressting if the big half cirle, of meditating cloud monks is something i could learn more about. Does one sit like this to meditate i temples?

Well this was unusual.

Valahaka Devas in SN 32, and also Nagas, Supanna/Garudas, Gandhabbakaya devas in SN 29, 30, 31, are unusual texts edited in the Khandha Vagga. They do [not] have any connection with the teachings of Khandha at all.

But according to Yin shun, these texts are belonging to the so-called Veyyakarana section subordinated to the 5 major Vaggas of SN/SA (see pp. 21, 23, n. 22, 249, in Choong Mun-keat The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism). It may be correct to say so!

well, the 4 you are omitting: those gods are real.

Why no.

Today there is people talking about the transference of mind to USB flash memories, and the public believe that. And there is also some people claiming the humans will be immortal in only 20 years future, and also many people believe it and applaud such claims.

Therefore, to take this view as something enough real and respectable for the intelligent and learned people, just we need to fabricate a neo-climate theory to defend the possibility of some type of mind in clouds, rains, and etc.

With enough presence in newspapers, a pair of TED talks with guys from Silicon Valley or similar, youtubers and some angry children to defend our views in the UN, then for sure we could add this 4 point without any special rejection of people.

I think we can bypass all that boring social-mediatic process to condition what can be real for the minds, to imagine it has been already done. And we can add the 4 point without problem: those gods are real.

  • I’m sorry, I’m not sure if the third possibility is the same of what I expose here. Anyway, the process of acceptance of what is possible could be similar.
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If the gods are real, then, the 5 point is: it is possible humans are able to communicate with those gods.

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After reading more about the topic I am starting to think that these suttas may be later additions to the tepitaka (might be wrong). Those suttas may have been constructed using mythical beliefs of other religions. In that sense these are not the Buddha’s preachings.

Ancient societies tend to believe in weather and climate fluctuations as gods or phenomena with gods control due to massive distructions caused by bad weather such as drought, floods, storms, lightning, etc. Most of ancient societies share these beliefs due to the supirier nature of these phenomena; they are beyond human control, then they thought natural disasters came to wipe out sinners or wash their sins off. Then they started worships and rituals to mythical gods of natural phenomena such as cloud gods, gods of lightning, gods of water, etc.

These things may have adopted to give more acceptable myths to the society which enhances the spreading of Buddhism. Some scholars argue mahasamaya sutta, and suttas about devas such as venhu (vishnu from hindu) were added to show the Buddhas superiority over devas and brahmas from other religions.

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The suttas are likely to be later addition. But, the mythical stories are how ‘late’ to be artificially compiled into the major Vagga? The mythical stories (including Nagas, Supannas) could be already accepted or adapted in the Buddhist community at the time of the Buddha/or in the period of Early Buddhism, though they may not be the Buddha’s preaching.

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Possible,

Adhammika sutta also says there are deities of weather control.

DN33:3.2.33: There are sentient beings that are non-percipient and do not experience anything, such as the gods who are non-percipient beings.

We’re all non-percipient beings when spammers call.

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The following recent article by Choong Mun-keat may be useful:

“A comparison of the Pāli and Chinese versions of Nāga Saṃyutta, Supaṇṇa Saṃyutta, and Valāhaka Saṃyutta, early Buddhist discourse collections on mythical dragons, birds, and cloud devas”, Journal of the Oxford Centre for Buddhist Studies, 2020 (18): 42-65.

http://jocbs.org/index.php/jocbs/issue/view/20/showToc

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