Varieties of Buddhist Practice

Discussion
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Maybe slightly off-topic but it certainly adds to the discussion and I’m glad you chimed in. That’s a very interesting statement that clears something up for me.

About a dozen years ago when I was still trying to figure out the Dhamma on my own, I went to several Zen meetings at a group in my area. I was very puzzled because we only did some curious chanting and then some chit chat about nothing Buddhist. At one meeting in the group discussion I asked the Seikai (right term?) about the 5 aggregates. He became very solemn and serious and told me I would need to ask a teacher about things like that and moved on. I always thought that was very strange. Does that mean that Zen practitioners don’t read any suttas? How could they be considered Buddhist? I don’t mean this critically, just out of astonishment.

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"covetousness and displeasure” is short for all five hinderances?
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Having spent many years in the Zen tradition, this is also what I observed. Most practitioners, even those with many years of experience, barely knew the N8FP, generally interpreted DO only from the momentariness perspective, and only read the Mahayana sutras, like the Diamond Sutra, Lotus Sutra, and Surangama.

Not saying this is bad or wrong. Just that from what I saw in several centers there was virtually no foundation of practice based on the Pāli suttas.
But I wouldn’t say they are not Buddhists.

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I wouldn’t go so far as to say that they aren’t Buddhists! It’s just an ambiguous thing to know where to draw a line between one thing and another.

I asked about abhijjhādomanassaṁ because I want to make sure that my assessment of what the Buddha said as reflected in the suttas is correct before I continue on.

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Great question. I can give ONE answer, not THE answer. Again, typical zen :sweat_smile:

First of all, dharma questions are mostly handled by “transmitted” teachers, but it depends on the community, lineage and person. Someone might instantly defer to a teacher, while another will give a full blown dharma talk, you never know.

It took me years before I even stumbled upon the Canons, either Pali or Chinese. They were never a part of the discussion. In Soto Zen, especially, which is what I know, teachings are mostly based on either Dogen Zenji, the Chinese ancestors or modern teachers explaining the ones I just mentioned.

Most folks are familiar with Mahayana texts, such as the Lotus Sutra to one extent or another, the Platform Sutra, Diamond Sutra, Surangama Sutra, Lankavatara, Vimalakirti… I know a large number of folks who don’t even know where they could find the story of Shakyamuni’s awakening, what he taught about meditation, what the 8NP is, what the 5 hindrances are, what types of meditation can be found in the Suttas and Agama Sutras, etc..

There is also the aspect of not understanding the origins of different texts and stories, which is not hard to comprehend, given that if what one encounters first is a Mahayana school, then what they are presented with is introduced as THE actual word of the Buddha and things are defined from the get-go quite differently than what one may find in EBTs.

Because of how Zen developed and is approached, as “a special transmission outside the teachings, not dependent on words or letters”, there is not much emphasis on the sutras, as it is understood the Dharma holders, the lineage of ancestors from “the Buddha” to whichever one of us has received Dharma transmission, are equal voices of the Dharma to that of any sutra. It is a complicated dynamic, I would say, and difficult to explain in just a few lines. For a Zen fellow, the Dharma is not contained in the letters of a text, but in the lived experience, in direct awakening, in seeing into one’s mind and nature.

This answer is probably very poor and I apologize for that, but I hope it somewhat answers your question.

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Agree! It’s not quite the same, but it might be seen in the similarities and differences between Roman Catholic Christians and Methodist Protestant Christians.

There are doctrinal and practice-based differences, yet also common understandings and shared values.

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Oh, my apologies for triggering a new discussion thread! :face_with_spiral_eyes:

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No worries!
@Adutiya said he was enjoying all the posts, but it appeared best to split the new “Varieties of Practice” posts into a new thread.

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Dogen posted the above in the other thread. I think it’s generally the right approach. There’s a balance between the extremes of meditating with no learning/reflection vs. learning/reflection with no meditating. That balance differs between individuals and changes with time.

Again, a bhikkhu has learned much, remembers what he has learned, and accumulates what he has learned. Those teachings that are good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, with the right meaning and phrasing, which proclaim the perfectly complete and pure spiritual life—such teachings as these he has learned much of, retained in mind, recited verbally, investigated mentally, and penetrated well by view. Since a bhikkhu has learned much … and penetrated well by view, this, too, is a quality that serves as a protector.

-AN 10.17

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Thank you for this, I understand that this is not the case for all Zen traditions but it certainly gives an insight into a lineage/tradition that I know very little about, much appreciated. :anjal:

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Glad it was useful. :blush:

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Definitely avoid The Jaina Path of Purification by Padmanabh S. Jaini if practicing with lists seems beyond the pale!

It’s inconceivable to me that the EBTs would be devoid of lists to capture the primary teachings of the Buddha. This is a practical (and not wholly original) transmission process that also reflects its Brahmanical roots, yes?

@Bion I agree… there’s a “philosophy of transmission” in medieval Chinese Buddhism that is, in my mind, a complete departure from what was current in the Buddha’s time in that area of India (and centuries after the Buddha).

For me, learning Buddhist practice via the EBTs and associated Vipassana centers was the most straightforward way to adopt Buddhism as a lay Westerner. The ritual aspects of Mahayana were out of reach for me. It’s only now, years later, that I can approach Mahayana with appreciation and wonder. I feel it requires much patience and “eyes wide open” to skillfully work with both transmission appoaches.

All that being said, I love your posts!

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I think it’s important to be open to the cultural side of it, the historical aspect too. The development of Chinese buddhism was tumultuous and there was a lot of effort put into legitimizing teachers, monasteries, schools.. etc

An idea of lineage is not that ludicrous to me, despite the Buddha refusing to name a successor when asked to. In a sense, because ordinations require a set number of present bhikkhus, there is an unbroken lineage that extends universally, Theravada and Mahayana dissolving into something else, earlier in the development of Buddhism. This, I find particularly special. My lineage can be traced back accurately until at least the 1200s in Japan, (way before that, really) then back more centuries into China..

:grinning_face:

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Sincerely this is something been thinking about recently & I relate to the dhamma the same way as someone that follows theravada - still haven’t worked out my thoughts but its something felt intuitively - there is something that is outside the words - the dhamma vinaya - a the code of conduct which sangha practice - how the dhamma came to us today - (the dhamma is also something in nature which it still takes something to see …insight that can be the words of another from the practice being made real - people see others wellbeing ) the relation was not like other institutions - or even other wandering philosophers or scholar types - there’s no coptic Neopythagoreans around - the christian formed monasteries and there was a position - those institutions tend to reify and solidify - the place in the eterneity - but the 4 fold sangha is the lineage of “everything that has the nature to arise has the nature to pass” Kondanna knows! - it’s an odd institution in that people are to be homeless beggars hehe - moving on - there is not a pope, there is not oxford tutorial where knowledge is seen as a inquiry or seen valid to contest (as things as varied as the oxford tutorial, to socrates/plato, to the advesarial court system sees arriving at truth - rather the container that holds this truth is caga and sila - there is something about presenting to a wandering samana “have you eaten?” on the alms round - (which is what I think is likely close to the meaning of the joshu koan) - this is the support of the kind of “knowledge” (for want of a better word) which the dhamma comes to us today - those who practice well, “those who practice sincerely, those who practice directly”… etc

it’s also like “enable incomparable goodness to arise in the world” a child or someone poor can give an apple - because the code of conduct of the monastics - but the opportunity for those things missed so often in society based on instrumentalism (the closed hand around the tool) compared to the open hand

it’s relational

not sure if expressed this well but something meaning to work out how to express

there is a dhamma vinaya that is relational & outside the scriptures that transmits, I think

with metta

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Thank you for that comment. I think you were pretty articulate. :blush:

An idea that’s been long part of my understanding and approach, is that It’s one thing to speak of the dharma, of attainments, of cultivation, of awakening, and it’s a different thing to see them embodied, or to embody them. Someone who is truly compassionate, free of aversion, free of clinging, free of hindrances, does not necessarily need to rely on written words to teach someone about those things. It’s the lived experience of them that serves as a source for the teaching and expression of it.

This is why in Zen, the focus is on the ordinary life, on the daily activities and present life of the individual. I always repeat the same thing in talks I give: there is no enlightenment outisde of everyday life. People need to sit a lot with that idea sometimes.

When the Buddha attained awakening, he did not vanish into nothingness… he continued to live for another 45 years, dealing with people, dealing with illness, heat, dirt, unruly bhikkhus. Same goes for arhats.. So, if any of them were not to say another word for the rest of their lives, wouldn’t their daily existence in the world be a teaching of the dharma in itself?

Something like that. :slightly_smiling_face:

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yes I think its the greatest gift can give - caga - synonym of dana and nibanna! I am very grateful to those arhants and sangha hehe

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I think it wouldn’t be far off the mark to call Chan and Zen Buddhism “post-Mahayana” Buddhism, at least in the West. They still study all of the Mahayana sutras in the Chinese community, and early teachings are more and more a subject of interest, too. But Japanese and American Zen seems to not be that interested in scriptural studies. So, there are cultural differences even among Zen Buddhists.

In Chan Buddhism, there was a new type of scripture that emerged that was similar to the Confucian Analects in the sense that it presented the teachings of a given teacher. There was a book I read many moons ago that was a distillation of those texts - The Original Teachings of Chan Buddhism. John McRae published a book on the early history of Chan Buddhism, too, for those who are interested. It was titled The Northern School and the Formation of Early Chan Buddhism. It focuses on the division that existed early on between teachers in the north and south of China, but it’s a good window into the early days of Chinese Buddhism, too.

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Sounds about right to me. Western Zen is almost a step farther even than Japanese Zen.

He also has Seeing Through Zen, which is also really informative. Read it some weeks ago.. Really grounds the tradition into a more ordinary reality, one of political and economical interests and struggle for authority, legitimacy and influence.

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Those sound like fascinating books to explore. :slight_smile:

How Chan developped in influence and competition with Daoism is quite the interest of mine, after that add in all the Japanese political realities…

This remind me of a “Sutra” I worked on before, (probably better translated as “Classical”) in Daoist canon, that has not only many Dharmic influences, but a clear DO-like structure to explain a certain eschatology.

I think it would be naive to consider all doctrinal developments sincere (in any tradition, anywhere), but a healthy clash of cultures can produce interesting works like this that do not necessarily fit into preestablished molds. :slight_smile:

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Indeed.
Reminds me of the tragic stories in Zen at War by Brian Victoria and the way some supposed Zen Masters encouraged their students to just shoot others because of emptiness and duty, including to the state.

To be clear, this is not meant in any way to impugn the Zen tradition. I have deep respect for it, having trained in Zen for many years.

But

None of this aligns with the Precepts and Teachings in the EBTs. So, some drift and differences there…

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Brian Victoria’s book is to be taken with quite a bit of salt… It’s quite a bit exaggerated and biased. That aside… the concept of precepts and morality is a really complicated one in Zen, as I assume you already know.

Refrain from killing becomes the precept of non-killing, because from the beginning there is no killing when there is no separation, so without a deep understanding of how the precepts are understood, it’s super easy to slide into extremism. Also, it is understood that it’s a question of wisdom how a bodhisattva tackles helping sentient beings, even at the expense of their own karmic baggage. The Mahayana looks at actions in terms of intention AND consequences, so wisdom is to be able to act in a balanced state of the two…

There is indeed significant drift, particularly in Japanese Zen, which began as early as the 700s. Saicho’s opposition to the “lesser” schools led to the replacement of ordination based on the Vinaya with ordination based on the Bodhisattva precepts. This change contributed to the formation of the unique clergy system found in Japan, which was later introduced to the West. While Western practitioners have been quick to abandon what they perceive as unnecessary for practice, such as robes and ceremonies, labeling them as mere Japanese cosplay, they have not considered discarding other elements unique to the Japanese development of Buddhism, such as the absence of Vinaya-based ordination and clergy marriages.

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