Ven Buddhadasa's definition of "true Buddhists"

[Saurabh]

@Sibuna

What do you think he means here by “true Buddhist”? My understanding was that anyone who takes refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha, and actually attempts to live by Buddhist principles, is a true Buddhist. By Buddhadasa Bhikkhu standards, wouldn’t most Buddhists not be true or real Buddhists?

To answwr this exactly…he is right in saying who true buddhist is when you consider the goal of followers of Lord Buddha, which is liberation/nibbana(to be free from the sufferings & pains of samsara). But 90 % of today’s buddhists(by this I mean those who have some degree of faith in teachings of Buddha) are not Aryan’s, it’s not debatable but a fact. So we should accept that…if we consider our life filled with mix of happiness and sufferings, we are not Aryans(yet)! But buddha did not abandon anyone because one couldn’t be monk and renounce the samsara. That’s the reason we have 5 precepts of lay persons(like you and me). For lay persons there are 5 precepts and for monks about 225 or something. There is a reason for that, we as lay persons enjoy dancing, music and various kinds of sensual pleasures…so only 5 precepts are given. Try focusing on becoming ‘true lay buddhist’ instead of ‘true buddhist’. True lay buddhist’ is one who is not renunciant and follows 5 precepts daily and 8 precepts on uposatha days.(although not all follow 8 precepts as it is not that easy to follow). 5 precepts are atleast must…just focus on that.
See you said you are new to buddhism so you don’t need to judge yourself in negative way based on venerable buddhadasa’s bhikkhu’s standards because he was talking within some context.

@Sibuna

My understanding was that anyone who takes refuge in the Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha, and actually attempts to live by Buddhist principles, is a true Buddhist

Your understanding is correct…but I hate to break it to you that…we(lay Buddhists) although we have taken refuge in triple jewels in name (daily saying that "buddham Sharanam gacchami…"and so on), we actually haven’t taken refuge completely. We are not living by buddhist principles perfectly but (as you said above) we are ATTEMPTING TO LIVE BY BUDDHIST PRINCIPLES.
If we go by words…
1)Living by buddhist principles = ‘true buddhist’ (Aryans)
2)ATTEMPTING to live by buddhist principles = ‘buddhist’

So 90% of Buddhists come in the 2nd category.

Plz understand this…taking refuge in triple refuge is not yes/no task; it is not like turning light off/on; it is a process one has to put efforts daily, at each moments. Its like we are moulding our mind day by day(abandoning tendencies which bring harm and cultivating tendencies which are beneficial). In other words we are not ‘true buddhist’ yet, but gradually we are trying. So it’s not yes/no task but a gradual process of purification.

@Sibuna

Buddhadasa says in the book that commoners are Buddhists in name only and that: “To be a ‘true Buddhist’ is to be ariya, those of noble practice who understand everything around them correctly to a far higher degree than ordinary people.”

I will give you an analogy… we should see this as our teacher saying that you don’t study enough, if you had, you would have gotten 100% but you are not ‘true apprentice’. See here teacher is pushing us(students) to progress higher n higher. Techers can sometimes be harsh on students so that some students might progress faster. A true student ideally tries to score 100%. So yes in teacher’s eyes we are not true students, we are working to be true students.

It is same as above we are not perfectly taking refuge in buddha, dhamma and sangha; we are actually trying to do it perfectly day by day.

@Sibuna

By Buddhadasa Bhikkhu standards, wouldn’t most Buddhists not be true or real Buddhists?

Yes by Buddhadasa bhikkhu’s standards only stream-enterer or higher noble beings are true Buddhists and we are trying to reach there…so we are trying to be true Buddhists…hence we are not ‘True buddhist’ but we are just ‘Buddhists’. (If we go by the words alone).

I think buddhadasa’s bhikkhu’s remarks should be seen as remarks given to student who’s ‘learning’ but not yet ‘learned’ or completed study…hence not ‘true student’ but just ‘student’.

Lastly I would like to suggest you one thing…plz try not to judge yourself so harshly based on various remarks of various teachers. As buddha said, be a lamp unto yourself…so just ignore if some other lamp says you are not that bright or another lamp says you are too bright. Just absorb what benefits you and ignore/let go of what doesn’t seem to be of benefitting you! Focus on EBT’s which are best standards to know dhamma. Its actually easier like this.

Btw sorry if I sounded rude or disrespectful somewhere, my English isn’t perfect! And also Because I am not ‘true English speaker’ rather I’m trying to be ‘true English speaker’ hence I am just ‘English speaker’! Just tried to extend analogy further…

[Dhammavidhu]

I don’t think we need to follow anyone else, as long as we have the teachings of the Buddha:

With Mahānāma
At one time the Buddha was staying in the land of the Sakyans, near Kapilavatthu in the Banyan Tree Monastery. Then Mahānāma the Sakyan went up to the Buddha, bowed, sat down to one side, and said to him:

“Sir, how is a lay follower defined?”

“Mahānāma, when you’ve gone for refuge to the Buddha, the teaching, and the Saṅgha, you’re considered to be a lay follower.”

“But how is an ethical lay follower defined?”

“When a lay follower doesn’t kill living creatures, steal, commit sexual misconduct, lie, or use alcoholic drinks that cause negligence, they’re considered to be an ethical lay follower.”

“But how do we define a lay follower who is practicing to benefit themselves, not others?”

“A lay follower is accomplished in faith, but doesn’t encourage others to do the same. They’re accomplished in ethical conduct, but don’t encourage others to do the same. They’re accomplished in generosity, but don’t encourage others to do the same. They like to see the mendicants, but don’t encourage others to do the same. They like to hear the true teaching, but don’t encourage others to do the same. They readily memorize the teachings they’ve heard, but don’t encourage others to do the same. They examine the meaning of the teachings they’ve memorized, but don’t encourage others to do the same. Understanding the meaning and the teaching, they practice accordingly, but they don’t encourage others to do the same. That’s how we define a lay follower who is practicing to benefit themselves, not others.”

“But how do we define a lay follower who is practicing to benefit both themselves and others?”

“A lay follower is accomplished in faith and encourages others to do the same. They’re accomplished in ethical conduct and encourage others to do the same. They’re accomplished in generosity and encourage others to do the same. They like to see the mendicants and encourage others to do the same. They like to hear the true teaching and encourage others to do the same. They readily memorize the teachings they’ve heard and encourage others to do the same. They examine the meaning of the teachings they’ve memorized and encourage others to do the same. Understanding the meaning and the teaching, they practice accordingly and they encourage others to do the same. That’s how we define a lay follower who is practicing to benefit both themselves and others.” Link

[sikkhadhamma]

In general, Buddhism isn’t against singing. Referring to DN 21, the Buddha was charmed while enjoying absorption by a deity with his singing and harp playing. The Buddha did not seem to mind what that deity had done.

[MattStL]

Great text, thank you for posting it!

[Sibuna]

I read a book by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu titled “Buddha-Dhamma for Inquiring Minds”. This book has been very confusing for me, and I have asked questions about out in this forum before.

In the book he says the following:

• “‘Ordinary people’ refers to people who have never been proper Buddhists, know nothing of genuine Buddhism, merely follow customs, are Buddhists in name only, or according to birth records through having been born of Buddhist parents. To be a ‘true Buddhist’ is to be ariya, those of noble practice who understand everything around them correctly to a far higher degree than ordinary people.”

and this:

• “The reward you will reap with nobility is to rise from the level of ordinary commoner to become a true Buddhist in the ariyan discipline.”

I was wondering what you guys make of these quotes because I am confused by his use of the phrase “true Buddhist”. I thought anyone who took refuge and attempted to faithfully practice was a true Buddhist, but Buddhadasa seems to be saying only ariyas, or the noble sangha, are true Buddhists. Wouldn’t this make most Buddhists not real or true Buddhists?

I know ariyas, such as stream winners, are more knowledgeable and advanced that the average Buddhist, but are only they true Buddhists?

Thanks.

[Snowbird]

How is your question here different than your previous question? Knowing that might get you better answers.

[Sibuna]

My last question was more concerned with the part of the quote dealing with music and dancing. I wanted to make a new post specifically for this question.

[faujidoc1]

To be an ariya is to be one of ‘the four pairs - the eight individuals’, the lowest rung of which are those who are practicing for the fruit of stream entry.
So,

@Sibuna

anyone who took refuge and attempted to faithfully practice

is indeed one of the four pairs… as they are are practicing for the fruit of stream entry. Their complementary individual is the one who has achieved stream entry. Taken together, they form the first pair of ariyas.

DN33
Eight persons worthy of a religious donation: The stream-enterer and the one practicing to realize the fruit of stream-entry. The once-returner and the one practicing to realize the fruit of once-return. The non-returner and the one practicing to realize the fruit of non-return. The perfected one, and the one practicing for perfection.

How many people who are nominally “Buddhist” in a Buddhist country such as Thailand or Sri Lanka actually try to follow the precepts or to practice? Just the same as people everywhere else, nominally “Buddhist” people kill living beings, lie, steal, cheat on their partners etc. on a daily basis! Mind you, injunctions against these activities are common to all the world’s major religions. Yet, people somehow still carry on doing what they do…

[Khemarato.bhikkhu]

I believe this is the third time this is being posted, as the second time this post was created it was merged into the original thread…

[Sibuna]

I was wondering what happened to my last post. I thought it might of been deleted. Guess I didn’t look hard enough. I wanted to make a separate post for these specific questions as my earliest post was about music and dancing, not the true Buddhist part of the quote.

[Sibuna]

What about your average lay Buddhist who may not be practicing for stream entry. Are they not a “true Buddhist”?

[faujidoc1]

This is indeed a question each and every person should deeply reflect upon.

“I say that I am a follower of Philosophy/ Religion/ Way of Life X. To what extent do my intentions and actions accord with those ideals? Am I truly doing the best I can?”

The answer is between them and their Teacher and not for anyone else to judge.

Similarly, every reader of Ven Buddhadasa’s book (who is actually a second hand listener of his transcribed sermon) needs to find the answer in their own heart.

[dhammapala]

1. The point has never been about ticking boxes to call oneself a ‘Buddhist’.
2. What makes one a Noble Being is working to identify that there is suffering, there are causes, there is a way to uproot those causes, and there is a Path to uproot those causes. This leads to the blossoming of the Dhammachakka (Magga-vibhanga sutta) in oneself
3. ‘Layperson’ and ‘bhikku’ are just labels and there is no gatekeeping as to who/what can attain to total unexcelled awakening and the realisation of nirvana, defined as the release from the causes of suffering into total unencumbered limitless freedom.

A Noble Person is one who is actively walking the Path and doing what is necessary to maintain peace as well as supporting collective harmony.

The mission statement is laid out in the Dhammachakkapavattana Sutta and the Magga-vibhanga Sutta which can be located by typing each respective term into Google and writing ‘accesstoinsight’.

Identifying the means that leads to the ends in alignment with dhammic principles, then applying them, is what qualifies an individual as a Noble person. Anyone who earnestly strives will find the Way.

---

5 Precepts: I undertake the precept to refrain from destroying living creatures.
I undertake the precept to refrain from taking that which is not given.
I undertake the precept to refrain from sexual misconduct.
I undertake the precept to refrain from incorrect speech (I will be honest, generous and take delight in giving & sharing).
I undertake the precept to refrain from intoxicating drink and drugs which lead to carelessness.

3 Refuges:

1. I go to refuge to the Buddha (Buddha: one who knows, one who is awake, one who understands, as well as your own quality of knowing, wakefulness and understanding. Plus all historical Buddha’s and the Noble Assembley).
2. I go to refuge to the Dhamma (that which is actual, the means that lead to the ends, with particular regards to identifying the noble path. The facts. Particular means lead to particular ends. If you wish to originate a flame utilising a matchbox, one must take the match, strike it against the match box and the flame originates).
3. I go to refuge to the Sangha (a community, the noble community).

Primary objective to realise:

1. There is suffering.
2. Suffering has causes.
3. There is an uproot of those causes.
4. There is a path that leads to the uprooting of those causes.

Noble Eightfold Path - Maggha-vibhanga:

I have heard that at one time the Blessed One was staying in Savatthi at Jeta’s Grove, Anathapindika’s monastery.

There he addressed the monks, saying, “Monks.”

“Yes, lord,” the monks responded to him.

The Blessed One said, “I will teach & analyze for you the Noble Eightfold Path. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak.”

“As you say, lord,” the monks responded to him.

The Blessed One said, "Now what, monks, is the Noble Eightfold Path? Right view, right resolve, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right concentration.

"And what, monks, is right view? Knowledge with regard to stress, knowledge with regard to the origination of stress, knowledge with regard to the stopping of stress, knowledge with regard to the way of practice leading to the stopping of stress: This, monks, is called right view.

"And what is right resolve? Being resolved on renunciation, on freedom from ill will, on harmlessness: This is called right resolve.

"And what is right speech? Abstaining from lying, abstaining from divisive speech, abstaining from abusive speech, abstaining from idle chatter: This, monks, is called right speech.

"And what, monks, is right action? Abstaining from taking life, abstaining from stealing, abstaining from unchastity: This, monks, is called right action.

"And what, monks, is right livelihood? There is the case where a disciple of the noble ones, having abandoned dishonest livelihood, keeps his life going with right livelihood: This, monks, is called right livelihood.

"And what, monks, is right effort? (i) There is the case where a monk generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the non-arising of evil, unskillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (ii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the abandonment of evil, unskillful qualities that have arisen. (iii) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the sake of the arising of skillful qualities that have not yet arisen. (iv) He generates desire, endeavors, activates persistence, upholds & exerts his intent for the maintenance, non-confusion, increase, plenitude, development, & culmination of skillful qualities that have arisen: This, monks, is called right effort.

"And what, monks, is right mindfulness? (i) There is the case where a monk remains focused on the body in & of itself — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (ii) He remains focused on feelings in & of themselves — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iii) He remains focused on the mind in & of itself — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. (iv) He remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves — ardent, aware, & mindful — putting away greed & distress with reference to the world. This, monks, is called right mindfulness.

“And what, monks, is right concentration? (i) There is the case where a monk — quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful (mental) qualities — enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. (ii) With the stilling of directed thoughts & evaluations, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation — internal assurance. (iii) With the fading of rapture, he remains equanimous, mindful, & alert, and senses pleasure with the body. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, ‘Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasant abiding.’ (iv) With the abandoning of pleasure & pain — as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress — he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This, monks, is called right concentration.”

That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted at his words.

Magga-vibhanga Sutta: An Analysis of the Path

Meditation, samatha means calm abiding and vipasanna means insight. They are two sides of the same coin. The objectives of meditation are various (like a mental gym or exercise) such as to cultivate calm, focus, concentration, wholesome states, and to develop insight.

A calm abiding necessitates the ground insight to develop and equally an insight can prompt someone to meditate. Use your own faculties to make sense and discern the way for yourself. What I have shared is the core. Notions such as causation, emptiness/tathata, 4 foundations of mindfulness, 4NT, 8FP, 6 qualities of dhamma,
Noble friendship,
The brahmaviharas,
Ten paramis,
4 Dhamma seals,
5 aggregates,
10 Fetters,
Samatha/vipasanna,
Mahabhutas
7 factors of awakening,
Will all serve as helpful things to consider when exploring the path.

[Erika_ODonnell]

But what does it even mean to be anything at all? Isn’t being just metaphysics?

I think Ven. Somā said it well (SN 5.2):

Surely someone who might think:
‘I am woman’, or ‘I am man’,
or ‘I am’ anything at all,
is fit for Māra to address.”

So if you think you are a Buddhist (or anything else, for that matter), I’m sorry to inform you that you’re fit for Māra to address

And if you think you are a true Buddhist, then you’re truly fit for Māra to address

And if you think you are a real Buddhist™, then you’re REALLY fit for Māra to address

[thomaslaw]

At least, I think, one should have some understanding of ‘right view’ for being a ‘true Buddhist’:

How to get Right View?

Right view in the noble eightfold path is knowledge (ñāṇa) of suffering (dukkha), knowledge of the arising of suffering, knowledge of the ceasing of suffering, and knowledge of way leading to the ceasing of suffering. It also in the Saṃyutta-nikāya/Saṃyukta-āgama refers to fully knowing (jānāti) and seeing (passati) phenomena (the five aggregates/sense objects) as: (1) impermanent (anicca), suffering (dukkha), not-self (anatta) (or anicca, dukkha, suñña (empty), anatta) and (2) the middle wa…

[Khemarato.bhikkhu]

@Erika_ODonnell

if you think you are a Buddhist (or anything else, for that matter), I’m sorry to inform you

Which Ajahn Buddhadasa himself talks about very eloquently in many of his books, such as Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree. Too bad our OP here hasn’t been able to get past this one passage in just one of his books despite struggling with it for over three months now! What a pity!

[Sibuna]

Sorry for the late reply. I really struggle with OCD and religious scrupulosity is a part of that for me. This text really triggered this aspect of my anxiety for some reason I can’t explain.

[Snowbird]

Ah, that makes perfect sense then! Sorry you are struggling with this.

This forum isn’t meant to be a place to discuss personal practice, but I will say that I wouldn’t give this quote much weight as out of context it doesn’t match up well with what we see in the suttas.

[Sibuna]

I’d just love to understand exactly what he means by “true Buddhist”. I know from what everyone has told me that he probably didn’t mean it in a disparaging way towards other Buddhists, but it’s still confusing to me.

[CheapAstronaut]

The writings of Buddhadāsa Bhikkhu were what gave me the confidence to accept Buddhism as not just an interesting philosophy but as a sincere practice. I take his writings as my main source of commentary on the Suttas and as my main guide for practice. So perhaps I can help a bit.

Firstly, unless you are from Thailand, the book you are reading was not written for you or for people like you. You must consider his words in the context of his intended audience: university-aged Thais, most of whom (from Buddhadāsa’s perspective) consider themselves Buddhist for superficial reasons. Their parents were Buddhists and so they were raised going to their local monasteries, learning the prayers, participating in merit-making activities, etc. However, they do not sincerely practice the teachings of the religion, they just go through the motions.

An analogy is like a preacher who tells the members of her church that most of them are not “true Christians”. They may wear the cross around their neck and attend church on Sundays and sing the songs and say their prayers before meals, but they have not taken the teachings of Jesus Christ to heart. They do not try to be Christ-like in their daily lives.

In both cases, this kind of statement is a rhetorical device meant to shock the audience out of their complacency and to consider more deeply the degree to which they are truly practicing their religion or just going through the motions. Though you are not the intended audience, it seems you were indeed shocked.

Secondly, reread the passage from the book and you may see that the terms ‘true Buddhist’ or ‘proper Buddhists’ are only meaningful in the contrast to ‘ordinary people’, some of whom may call themselves Buddhists but do not practice. Thus a ‘true Buddhist’ is simply someone who practices sincerely and thus has a higher level of understanding than ordinary people who do not practice.

We shall consider a perspective that gives some understanding of the difference in level between the minds of ordinary people and the minds of Buddhists who actually practice. ‘Ordinary people’ refers to people who have never been proper Buddhists, know nothing of genuine Buddhism, merely follow customs, are Buddhists in name only, or according to birth records through having been born of Buddhist parents. To be a ‘true Buddhist’ is to be ariya, those of noble practice who understand everything around them correctly to a far higher degree than ordinary people.

While he references the ariya or noble as the bar for being a ‘true Buddhist’–and gives all those examples about dancing and laughing–he is doing so to give his audience an idea of the gulf between where most of us are at now and how different our perspectives may become if we practice sincerely. He says this explicitly in the first sentence of the quote above. Again, this is to motivate his audience to consider the depth of their own practice. Surely everyone in his audience would fail to meet the criteria he’s set forth.

Outside of this rhetorical context, I don’t believe that Buddhadāsa would say only a noble one, stream enterer, or Arahant could be considered a true Buddhist. Here’s an excerpt from Buddhadāsa’s book Seeing with the Eye of Dhamma (page 87).

We shouldn’t inflate ourselves, get ahead of ourselves, or pretend to be better than we are, but we must try our best. If we can’t yet manage path, fruit, and nibbāna correctly 100 percent of the time, we can still manage 5 or 10 percent and go from there. If we aren’t arahants, we can follow in their footsteps. The words of a reflection chant are appropriate: “We will follow the footsteps of the arahants today.” Just this is enough, is excellent. Although we are not arahants, we follow the path of the arahants, which is citta-bhāvana, cultivating the mind and developing life in line with the footsteps of the arahants.

Whether you are succeeding or not, if you are sincerely trying to follow the path to enlightenment, then that is enough. On the other hand, if you are simply going through the motions and not engaging in the process of mental and spiritual development, then you are a Buddhist in name and appearances only. That is the distinction he generally makes across his various writings and lectures and what I believe he was saying in those passages from Buddha-Dhamma for Inquiring Minds.

You don’t have to be perfect. You don’t have to completely give up the common behaviors of laughing and dancing and whatever else. But you should actively be reflecting on them and asking yourself if such behaviors reduce dukkha or reinforce sensual desires and feelings of self that perpetuate dukkha. Try reducing those behaviors for awhile and reflect on their absence. Trust that the Buddha was on to something and try to explore his wisdom for yourself. Just trying is enough, is excellent.

Good luck with your practice!