Viññāṇa and Vedanā Arise Simultaneously?

This is from EBT- but in a hurry now- so Rupa is the four elements (earth, fire, air, water) and things made from them) and Nama is feeling, perception, intentions, contemplations (vedana, sanna, cetana, manasikara). In terms of the DO, nama-rupa seems to refer to the objects that are perceived by the sense doors.

Please see what I wrote to clarify this above, and also the sutta that describes this state. Ven Ananda calls it a kind of samadhi, I believe.

Let me put this the other way round- if it wasn’t possible to witness, how would someone know an escape from suffering was really possible or actually existed? The removal of the fetter of doubt is possible because it can be witnessed- kaya sakkhi- means body ‘witness’.

Craving (as a hindrance) has been suppressed by this time. Ignorance gets steadily eroded away due to constantly seeing impermanence. The final straw, as it were, is when phenomena itself start fading away. We know that latent defilments (anusaya) and avijja are co-dependant (EBT sutta?). The suppression of craving as latent defilement and ignorance must happen simultaneously at the point of cessation (nirodha). In a stream entrant this is only a suppression (tadanga pahana) but in an arahanth, it is permanent. But since they still have a body, the sense bases start working again, giving rise to perception of the world.

Sorry- I wasn’t clear. The object ceases. Consciousness persists. There is a nice EBT where the Buddha asks what happens to a stream of sun light, when it doesn’t have anything to fall on. It just falls … on emptiness, ie Nibbana is seen …as an extant.

That is right.

The Dependant origination can be understood at various depths. I will try to explain…

  1. It could be understood what ensues when we act from ignorance and what remains when we don’t (acting out of wisdom and compassion, like the Buddha)
  2. The same DO terminology could be used to understand (like in the DN15 Maha-nidana sutta) how a foetus develops and how rebirth stops when there is no ignorance.
  3. It can also be used to understand how when ignorance and craving, as points of intervention make the entire DO collapse in its co-dependant form into emptiness.

I’m trying to fully understand this myself, so please don’t think I know this fully.

with metta

I see, In that case , I hope you will fully realise soon .
Thanks .

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I’ve been reading a lot of Gombrich recently, and he seems to think we have it all wrong. That the first 4 links are actually a parody of vedic thought, and the original chain started with the six sense bases. At some point it was realized that the parody and the original chain fit together quite nicely, but once it was combined, without the knowledge of how it actually worked and came to be, it started becoming far more difficult to understand than it originally was, which was already difficult to understand in the first place. This is shown by some of the suttas that actually show the original chain that starts from craving or the six sense bases. When you really look at it, those first 4 links do seem a little out of place. It’s only when you see them for what they are, a satire of vedic thought, that you can actually make sense of the whole thing. I don’t know, but that makes the most sense to me.

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I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was living among the Kurus. Now, the Kurus have a town named Kammasadhamma. There Ven. Anandaapproached the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to the Blessed One, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: “It’s amazing, lord, it’s astounding, how deep this dependent co-arising is, and how deep its appearance, and yet to me it seems as clear as clear can be.”
[The Buddha:] "Don’t say that, Ananda. Don’t say that. Deep is this dependent co-arising, and deep its appearance. It’s because of not understanding and not penetrating this Dhamma that this generation is like a tangled skein, a knotted ball of string, like matted rushes and reeds, and does not go beyond transmigration, beyond the planes of deprivation, woe, and bad destinations. DN15

Here the Buddha is asking Ven Ananda not to make light of the DO. It is hard stretch to then turn around and say he with his perfect speech decided to make fun of the Vedas at the risk of misleading thousands of his followers (because it was worth it!). Gombrich has no evidence to back up his speculation anywhere in the thripitaka or elsewhere and seems to be purely speculative.

On the other hand the Buddha goes on to explain in detail in the Mahanidana sutta:

“‘From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form.’ Thus it has been said. And this is the way to understand how from consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-and-form. If consciousness were not to descend into the mother’s womb, would name-and-form take shape in the womb?”
“No, lord.”
“If, after descending into the womb, consciousness were to depart, would name-and-form be produced for this world?”
“No, lord.”
“If the consciousness of the young boy or girl were to be cut off, would name-and-form ripen, grow, and reach maturity?”
“No, lord.”
“Thus this is a cause, this is a reason, this is an origination, this is a requisite condition for name-and-form, i.e., consciousness.” DN15

With metta

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Yes but you do realize that is just how the compilers put it together. I assume they put it in a way that was best for oral transmission. It could have easily been lost throughout time that the first 4 links were a parody. The first 4 and the last 8 were probably never meant to be connected but the compilers saw that they sort of made sense together and so they connected them. Gombrich does have a lot of evidence actually, when you look at the original vedic formulation of the first 4 links it is remarkably similar. I am honestly getting the feeling more and more that most buddhists today have totally lost what the buddha was talking about in some instances. The overall ideas have been saved, but all the intricacies have been misinterpreted into an almost dogmatic nonsense. The more I read from early buddhist scholars the more this seems to be the case.

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Here’s an old discussion of Gombrich’s analysis: https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?t=7464

Analayo discusses this in his talks about Bhikkhu Ñāṇananda’s Nibbāna Sermons:
https://www.bcbsdharma.org/resources/bhikkhu-analayo-lectures/
However, rather than seeing this connection as something that would lead to the dismissal of the first four links, it might be better to consider it as an aid to understanding.

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I absolutely agree. I think all 12 can still be taken together, but only if you fully understand the first 4 and their context that informs them.

Do you have this book of his? I wonder what it says as evidence that the first 4 links are vedic parody.

I agree regardless, that it still makes sense.

Usually when things are combined it is rather apparent. @sujato, I wonder if in your opinion there is evidence to show that the redactors combined the first 4 links with the rest.

with metta

Hi Mat,

Yes, I have the book. (Somewhere!).

I summarised the key points of that chapter in the link I gave above, and there is some useful discussion that introduces various other material.

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It’s called “What the Buddha Thought.” It’s a great read, it should be at the library, although I live in LA so the selection is pretty solid, but I assume it must be at others as well.

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For convenience sake , I copy and paste it here .

In the Rig Veda :

  1. First there is nothing, not even existence or non-existence. This corresponds to ignorance.

  2. A volitional impulse (kama - desire) initiates the process of creation.

  3. Desire, ‘the first seed of the mind’, creates consciousness.

  4. Gombrich: “Pure consciousness is thus at best reflexive, cognizing itself. From this reflexivity, in which there is only one entity, develops an awareness of subject and object; this in turn leads to further individuation, until we reach the multiplicity of our experience: individuation both by name (nama), using a linguistic category, and by appearance (rupa), perceptible to the senses.”

The Buddha often appropriated and redefined Vedic terms, perhaps the Buddha need to design a whole new terms and wordings and then start the teaching .

Sorry, I haven’t been following this thread, and don’t have the book to hand.

But no, I don’t accept the theory that DO is a mere pastiche. Yes, it is related to some ideas in Vedic thought, and this is important and interesting. But all ideas build on former ideas and the question is, what do they do with them?

I have read various text-critical attempts to argue that the twelve link sequence is a later development, and I think they are all flawed. They don’t establish any solid independent ground for their case, usually just overreaching from the assumption that longer = later, and bringing in a few marginal passages. But the fact that, for example, the Mahanidana Sutta has fewer links, but on other grounds shows signs of lateness, should warn us to be careful.

In my view, it is methodologically flawed to make text-critical arguments about earlier versions of any of the fundamental doctrinal pericopes. In all these passages, we have hundreds or thousands of instances of literally the identical passages, spread throughout all schools, languages, and texts, with virtually no variation. Clearly the most rational explanation for this is that they were a fundamental part of the teachings from the earliest times. Attempts to trace back a teaching before these passages—whether by invoking the Atthakavagga, or by referring to occasional variants—are sexy, but that’s all. There’s no serious text-critical method that can actually establish such a thing.

That’s not to say that they are all necessarily word-for-word spoken by the Buddha. It’s just to say that we don’t have any tools that can help us get any further. This is the limit to which critical inquiry brings us, and beyond that is speculation.

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I agree. I think it’s unfortunate if we use such observations to dismiss parts of the Dhamma as “just a parody”. On the other hand, the connection with earlier ideas may well be helpful in understanding the meaning.

True. But just look at the sequence- it is vaguely similar, but is dissimilar as saying an ephemeral God and Nibbana are the same thing. The devil is in the detail.

Also just as there are statues of the Buddha it doesn’t mean he is god it is only coincidence that gods have statues too. Just as the four elements here in the DO must have been derived from the Buddha’s own experience (actually there is a causative link to ignorance as well), the fact that it bore resemblance to the Vedic DO might have been coincidental. The search for truth is original. If the previous model is correct, it can be kept on. However if it isn’t seen to be true it must be discarded, with the proposal of a new model. Internally derived truths can evolve but they evolve internally, if that makes sense. External (Vedic) teachings can evolve but only in a theoretical scholarly manner and its not clear whether its application is valid for the original Buddhist teachings (certainly true for what came afterwards).

Yes, the deepest aspect of the Dhamma is the DO and 4NTs. How can we 1) assume we understand it so well as to be 2) …to be flippant about it.

with metta

Yes, I think any more and the water starts getting muddier. I think the purpose of the DO is to formulate and facilitate penetration in to reality.

After the texts, it is a personl journey in to this fathom long body, and perhaps not side track into speculation.
:anjal:

with metta

I don’t necessarily think that’s not how the Buddha taught it, on the contrary I think it was, but I just think that knowing where he pulled those first 4 links and how he appropriated them makes a huge difference. It totally changes the way most people interpret the whole system. Also, no one is saying “just a parody.” It’s extremely important in that this is a major aspect of the teachings, I just think it is very commonly misunderstood. One thing I will say is that I’m fairly certain that it was never meant to refer to multiple lifetimes. It seems that it was always meant to show how suffering occurs over and over again in this lifetime. That’s not to say that it refuted rebirth or anything like that, just that whatever lifetime you’re in, that’s what this applies to. The idea wasn’t really that it was pasted together later, but that the Buddha himself may have noticed how well it fit and put the first 4 and last 8 together himself, but without knowing his original meaning of the first 4, it quickly becomes an intraversable.

FYI , I started a new topic “unsolved mystery of the DO” , and copy and paste my post sharing here for your reference .

Below for your reference ,
Actually , the first four links is the summary of the first life time , not about previous life time , from six sense base to becoming is the second life time , and from birth to old age is the third life time .
However we must understand that the Buddha teaching is always centered around the here and now ,
which is the six sense base .
Therefore , the three life times is the cycle of birth and death which repeated endlessly in the oceans of samsara .

The interdependent origination which grounded on the body and mind and take place focusing at here and now where it is quite different from the vedic thought which is something abstract , metaphysical .

Here is the summary of the sequence .
For the first part ,
From ignorance or not knowing (the FNT) , there arises the thought of self , which in turn conditions the consciousness and nama-rupa which in turn conditions the consciousness and again conditions the nama-rupa and this goes on until one deaths . This part is for the adept .

And the next cycle start afresh with the previous same conditions and so on and so forth .
But , at the second stage the DO elaborate in a different sense yet in actuality it is the same . From the six sense base til becoming . This part is for the trainee .

Same for the third part, where the explanation is more for the normal people .

Since it came up above, I just thought I would present Thanissaro’s translation of Sutta Nipata 4:11, where a shorter and somewhat differently organized version of dependent origination is presented.

Sutta Nipata 4:11

“From where have there arisen
quarrels, disputes,
lamentation, sorrows, along with stinginess,
conceit & pride, along with divisiveness?
From where have they arisen?
Please tell me.”

“From what is dear
there have arisen
quarrels, disputes,
lamentation, sorrows, along with stinginess,
conceit & pride, along with divisiveness.
Tied up with stinginess
are quarrels & disputes.
In the arising of disputes
is divisiveness.”

“Where is the cause
of things dear in the world,
along with the greeds that go about in the world?
And where is the cause
of the hopes & aims
for the sake of a person’s next life?”

“Desires are the cause
of things dear in the world,
along with the greeds that go about in the world.
And here too is the cause
of the hopes & aims
for the sake of a person’s next life.”

“Now where is the cause
of desire in the world?
And from where have there arisen
decisions, anger, lies, & perplexity,
and all the qualities
described by the Contemplative?”

“What they call
‘appealing’ &
‘unappealing’
in the world:
In dependence on that,
desire arises.
Having seen becoming & notwith
regard to forms,
a person gives rise to decisions in the world;
anger, lies, & perplexity:
these qualities, too,
when there exists
that very pair.
A person perplexed
should train for the path of knowledge,
for it’s in having known
that the Contemplative has spoken
of qualities/dhammas.”

“Where is the cause
of appealing & un-?
When what isn’t
do they not exist?
And whatever is meant
by becoming & not- :
Tell me,
Where is their cause?”

“Contact is the cause
of appealing & un-.
When contact isn’t,
they do not exist,
along with what’s meant
by becoming & not- :
I tell you,
from here is their cause.”

“Now where is the cause
of contact in the world,
and from where have graspings,
possessions, arisen?
When what isn’t
does there not exist mine-ness?
When what has disappeared
do contacts not touch?”

“Conditioned by name-&-form
is contact.
In longing do graspings,
possessions have their cause.
When longing isn’t,
mine-ness doesn’t exist.
When forms have disappeared
contacts don’t touch.”

“For one how-arriving
does form disappear?
How do pleasure & pain disappear?
Tell me this.
My heart is set
on knowing how
they disappear.”

“One not percipient of perceptions
not percipient of aberrant perceptions,
not unpercipient,
nor percipient of what’s disappeared:
For one thus-arriving,
form disappears —
for objectification-classifications
have their cause in perception.”

“What we have asked,
you’ve expounded to us.
We ask one thing more.
Please tell it.
Do some of the wise
say that just this much is the utmost,
that purity of spirit
is here?
Or do they say
that it’s other than this?”

“Some of the wise
say that just this much is the utmost,
that purity of spirit is here.
But some of them,
who say they are skilled,
say it’s the moment
with no clinging remaining.
But knowing,
‘Having known, they still are dependent,’
the sage ponders dependencies.
On knowing them, released,
he doesn’t get into disputes,
doesn’t meet with becoming & not-
: He’s enlightened.”

We get this account: Disputes and quarrels arise from things held dear; things held dear arise from from desire; desire arises from the appealing and unappealing; the appealing and unappealing depend for their existence on contact; contact is conditioned by name-&-form; name-&-form arises from perception.

If we think of disputes and quarrels as “strife”, then the result is that the cessation of perception ends strife. The Buddha recognizes a distinction among the wise: some seem to say that one needs to end perception altogether to end strife and attain purity of spirit. Others say purity of spirit is attained once attachment ends completely, and for attachment to end one needs to get beyond views and knowledge and be in a state of agnosia.

It is notable that in this sutta, and most of the Sutta Nipata, “name-&-form” seems to refer to any perceived and cognized object. If I see a certain shape(form) and cognize it as “chair”, then name-&-form has arisen for me. My desires and longings are conditioned by my being in a perceived world of conceptualized objects toward which my desires and longings are directed.

I think this is a much more intuitively plausible use of the term name-&-form than the later understanding of it as “mind and body”, and so I suspect that the glosses in later suttas that put name and form earlier in the chain and stretch this process out over lifetimes might have been garbled reinterpretations designed to suit the more scholastic and moralistic conception of the path that emerged from the Buddha’s original mystical and renunciant form.