may the true purpose of any pariyatti dhamma-vicaya be to truly explore the dhamma - without any bias or conditioning of religion, sect, cult, organization, tradition, personal animosities etc. there should be no malice or hatred against any dhamma teacher or organization. may pariyatti dhamma-vicaya lead to patipatti dhamma-vicaya with a mindset full of metta.
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Do you think this choiceless, effortless, thoughtless awareness is always present and can it be applied immediaitely? Or is it also a kind of awareness which becomes only visible and applicable after firstly deeply purifying mind?
I wonder was this not Krishnamurti’s ‘wrong’ judgement? That he ‘underestimated’ how in our minds awareness is deeply and intensely connected with longings, effort, choice, thoughts? That we cannot be just choiceless aware. Take pain. Now try to be choiceless aware. It is hard to manage because there is a long standing aversion against pain (choice). Does it not take effort to become choiceless?
I once heard a nice simlile. Someone compared the freed mind with a open hand/fist. This is it’s natural state. But we are so used to making a fist that we absolutely need a Path, a method, to gradually open that hand. All are muscles, nerves, fingers are day in day out used to making a fist. We need a method to open up and that method cannot be an open hand. We have to work with the conditions which cause a fist and eliminate them. The natural result is an open hand.
What are your thoughts on this?
Perhaps that “self/ego/I/Me” knows only relishing and suffering without happiness.
An interesting passage from MN1 comes to mind that addresses identification vs. extinguishment.
MN1:26.1: They perceive extinguishment as extinguishment.
MN1:26.2: But then they identify with extinguishment, they identify regarding extinguishment, they identify as extinguishment, they identify that ‘extinguishment is mine’, they take pleasure in extinguishment.
MN1:26.3: Why is that?
MN1:26.4: Because they haven’t completely understood it, I say.
Notice that identification isn’t really a self. Identification is simply the process, the habit of asserting self. Identification is that advert arising with the claim “but WAIT, there’s MORE! For just 99 cents, you too can have…” Adverts do exist and aren’t going anywhere. The trickiest adverts are the ones arising inside. We’re all quite adept at writing our own adverts, seeking continued existence of a true self.
DN34:1.2.11: What one thing should be given up?
DN34:1.2.12: The conceit ‘I am’.
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You can not practice vipassana prior to attaining Nibbana, it’s only after Nibbana (ie. stream-entry) that one can practice Vipassana, so sadly what you said there is no sutta basis for such practice
That’s not true actually. It’s related to Arahant not Sotapanna as Sotapannas in the suttas are sometimes not even aware they attained Sotapanna, unless you are talking free from existential dread that is not in experience but in stream after death (not going into lower realms)
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request PUERH to kindly reply.
with respect & much metta,
manish
PUERH wrote: Nama means “mental phenomena”. If nama would mean “Name”, the animals would be endowed with conceptual thought. Vipassana object remains in that space before the arising of the conceptual thought.
MANISH: this is interesting.
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am i right if i understand thus: “in real, deep Vipassana insight, the meditator is only experiencing anicca, knowing silently for himself with pañña/ñana that this is anicca, but without thinking “anicca” at that very moment and certainly he will not label. SO, HIS ANICCANUPASSANA IS NEITHER A THOUGHT NOR A LABEL AND ALSO NOT A PSYCHOLOGICAL / PSYCHOANALYTICAL INFERENCE. this is true ‘pannattim thapetva’ concept-less, thought-less, label-less, inference-less, analysis-less, effort-less & choice-less ‘visesena passati’ti’ vipassana bhavana”.
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am i right if i understand that sakkayaditthi & asmimana are also illusory pannattis and as such the final dissolution of pannatti happens at arahathood?
i have inferred the above on the basis of the following references:
a. Therefore, one must examine conscientiously which instant is micchaditthi. The moment one is attached to various pannatti with the wrong view that what is not paramattha-dhamma really exists. At that instant there is sakkayaditthi. Since pannatti is not paramattha-dhamma but one mistakes it as what is truly the self, the entity, the person and various things in reality, there is wrong view as sakkayaditthi.
- Summary of Paramattha dhamma Part III
by Sujin Boriharnwanaket
chapter: Pannatti
b. pannattim thapetva visesena passati’ti vipassana.
c. Aniccasaññino, meghiya, anattasaññā saṇṭhāti. Anattasaññī asmimānasamugghātaṁ pāpuṇāti diṭṭheva dhamme nibbānan”ti.
- meghiya sutta
d. (full sutta in context) aparena samayena pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu udayabbayānupassī viharati.
- khemaka sutta
e. imesu catusu ariyasaccesu evam tiparivattam dvădasăkaram yathăhhutam ńănadassanam suvisuddham ahosi.
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if i am right then - animals also have pannattis. although their conceptual thoughts & labels may not be as complex as ours. animals do recognize “names” and labels" and have sakkayaditthi & asmimana. but, surely they cannot do vipassana because - they cannot do pannattim thapetva visesena passati’ti vipassana.
- if during vipassana bhavana various names & labels [pannatti] arise (whether related to oneself or about the meditation kammatthana) what should the meditator do? simply continue the process of development of insight on the given kammatthana and slowly & gradually ‘yathabhuta nanadassana’ will become ‘suvisuddham’ and these pannattis will disappear on its own. am i right? but, if the meditator holds on to these name & labels in the name of vipassana or thinks/analyses/infers in anyway or gets psychologically or psycho-analytically associated with it - then it is not true vipassana but, may be yonisomanasikara / anussati / mundane vitakka-vicara (thoughts) OR at most it may be samadhi bhavana (upacara samadhi of first jhana but, devoid of panya) with pannatti as object of concentration.
reference:
a. Aniccasaññino, meghiya, anattasaññā saṇṭhāti. Anattasaññī asmimānasamugghātaṁ pāpuṇāti diṭṭheva dhamme nibbānan”ti.
- meghiya sutta
b. (full sutta in context) aparena samayena pañcasu upādānakkhandhesu udayabbayānupassī viharati.
- khemaka sutta
c. imesu catusu ariyasaccesu evam tiparivattam dvădasăkaram yathăhhutam ńănadassanam suvisuddham ahosi.
d. Visesena passanti etāyāti vipassanā. Aniccānupassanādikā bhāvanāpaññā. Tāya hi yogino khandhesu lokiyamahājanena passitaṃ itthipurisādikaṃ niccasukhādikañca atikkamitvā visesena aniccādikameva passantīti.
- Paramattha Dīpanī, § 170 of Kammaṭṭhāna saṅgaha paramatthadīpanī (9th chapter).
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will be grateful if you (PUERH) may kindly share your insights on the abovesaid issues.
with respect & much metta,
manish
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Hi @karl_lew,
"There are these four kinds of clinging: clinging to sensual pleasures, clinging to views, clinging to rules and observances, and clinging to a doctrine of self". (Bodhi, MN9)
I agree with you that identification is not really a self. I belief it is like you say
One cannot cling to a self. But one can cling to, for example, knowing to be yourself or to Nibbana as oneself.
I belief MN1 says: if this happens, then sakkaya ditthi is not yet uprooted, because the habit to conceive something like me and mine is still present and taking control again in the mind.
I think MN1 describes how strong the habit is to start to conceive the experienced as me and mine. I belief this is the power of sakkaya ditthi.
Asmi mana is, i belief a different habit. Asmi mana is, i belief (but correct me if i am wrong) about mirroring and it’s structure is: 'there is bodily awareness, so I exist" and vice versa. “There are thoughts, so I exist” and vice versa. 'There are emotions, so i exist" and vice versta. It is like a mental mirroring. If you look in a mirror and you see the reflection of the body your mind becomes peaceful because it acknowledges “i exist”. If you would not see your body, you would become very anxious.
The same is happening inside. Many people are always emotional because that is when they feel the most “i exist”. Their emotions ackknowledge ‘i exist’. So they keep it alive. Many people do not like dipassion because they get the feeling they do not exist anymore in dispassion. etc.
I think it is a very deep habit to perceive it this way that there is inside us a knower. Maha Boowa, in my opinion, describes that fundamental avijja causes this perception of a knower-who-knows. The mind is almost all the time loaden with this perception. It is like avijja prevents us to see and discover this duality is not really the nature of our mind. At least that is how i tend to understand his teachings.
We are so used to this inner perception of a knower-who-knows that we belief this is how mind is, it’s nature, while he says, this is not at all the nature of mind, but still a defiled state of mind. Avijja is like a lens which creates this vivid notion of a subject-who-knows-an-object.
Maha Boowa describes (in arahattamagga/phala) how, for him, suddenly avijja totally disappeared from mind and thereby also it’s effect on the mind. At that moment he clearly saw a knowing nature, the (pure) citta.
He described it as unborn. I do not know.
I think it is not bad or controversial to speak about true self as the original or pure state of mind, Nibbana. A state freed from adventitious defilements such as asmi mana and avijja which delude the mind in a very strong way and does hinder us to see the original state of mind without defilements.
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dear green,
imho - the development of experiential insight is a progressive process. please refer to stages of insight. imho pannattis drop away as vipassana / yathabhuta nanadassana matures (or vice versa). please refer to my previous posts in this very thread & quotations therein.
this can be understood only by experiential vipassana bhavana under the guidance of a competent teacher. theorization doesn’t help.
i would not like to bring krishnamurti in this discussion. doesn’t serve any purpose. buddha & buddha-dhamma are paripunno, parisuddho & anuttaro.
metta,
M
Hi manish, I’m sorry the delay
in a general way, the animals only can recognize sounds. Although from dolphins to the flies, the variety of animals is big. Probably the dolphins can recognize names, dogs only the sounds, and the flies no many options of recognition. Accumulation of panna is kammically different. Beings are born with differences and more or less panna accumulated.
Recognizing sounds is not the conceptual thought. We can call to a dog ,“bobby!”, and he comes. Although if we say “poppy!” probably he will come anyway. In the dog there is not a conceptual thought over-imposed to the knowledge of the reality of sounds. However, in our case the sounds are a support for the arising of a concept, in this case a name, which is a concept and not just a sound. If in a similar way we change the name of a person to call him, he will believe there is a confusion despite the sounds can be similar.
the human skill to manage the conceptual thought is useful for the Path, although also it acts like a tap for the arising of true knowledge. In example, the Buddha taught to realize anicca by knowing the arising and vanishing. However, when we try to go for that, we pursue conceptual meanings and rational conclusions as always, and we experience attachment to the grasping of atta objects arising and vanishing, instead realizing the manifestation of this arising and vanishing being the object in itself. And this is the type of object for what panna can arise.
Panna will arise to know the nature of Reality when the object is linked with the 3 characteristics. Or also in example, if we go for equanimity we can be trapped trying to equate the many atta objects instead realizing there is an underlying perfection in the plurality.
It seems all available doors for the arising of vipassana are very linked with anatta. Because when there is a true object of vipassana there is also a devoid of atta. In this sense we could say vipassana cannot be practiced at all. Pariyatti can help to remove wrong ideas, to clean or to prepare the space.
you ask me but I don’t know really because I lack of enough wisdom to understand depths of Insight and because each person has a kamma. Although note our intellectual fields of battle never ends, and more labels and ideas will appear without end. This is very tired, indeed.
I think the obstacles are leaved on its own depending of detachment. Detachment depends from sati which is the right position for the mind. Although neither sati can be forced. In my humble view, as happens with the contemplation of the arising and vanishing of the external objects of Reality, one should turn the inner look towards the arising and vanishing of mind contents. Not just to remain in a position to grasp atta objects to be aware of how they arise and vanish. That activity should become a switch to look again, to find an underlying perfection in where there is no any error and there was never it. These are the objects of vipassana to be discovered. At least I understand in this way
My Pali knowledge is poor and I believe you have more knowledge than me. Hope you can extract some profit from the interchange despite any mistake on my side.
metta and success for your Path,
This is what I was referring to
“So too, bhikkhus, for a noble disciple, a person accomplished in view who has made the breakthrough, the suffering that has been utterly destroyed and eliminated is more, while that which remains is trifling. Compared to the former mass of suffering that has been destroyed and eliminated, the latter is not calculable, does not bear comparison, does not amount even to a fraction, as there is a maximum of seven more lives. He is one who understands as it really is: ‘This is suffering’ … ‘This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering
SN 56.49
So it is indeed true that a sotapanna alleviates a mass of suffering.
Yes, but the mass of suffering that one gets rids of is not in Sotapanna experience, Buddha means lower realms here (hell/animal realm) and going into stream which only happen after death not in this lifetime (unless one attains Arahantship)
That’s open to interpretation based on the school of Buddhisn you follow, like Traditional theravada vs EBT, and what sources you use (commentaries vs suttas). I’ve had this discussion with a few monks in the past, whether a sotapanna directly knows he’s a sotapanna, and if he experiences a difference, etc… and there’s no clear answer so it’s open to interpretation based on the sources one uses. That’s a whole other thread though.
In the suttas, you can pick a couple of Sotapannas (based only on suttas) - people who realized Sotapanna directly like Sariputta and Mahanama who realized Sotapanna but did not believe it until Buddha confirmed it 3 times for them so experience my differ dependent on person and his personal “potential”
Maybe there is still a difference between a breaktrough and really experiencing fruits of that.
I belief Abhdihamma explains magga and phala immediately follow upon eachother but maybe there can be some time gap. I would guess that fruits must be experienced otherwise it is quit senseless to talk about unfettering and unburdening mind and the end of suffering.
Not really, they are only experienced in later stages. Sotapanna in mundane world is almost no different from regular person, the only difference are Sotapatti qualities - the real effect comes after death. The only distinct stages are Anagami and Arahant.
There are so many ideas about this, but how do you personally know what is true? Is that belief, own experience, tradition, the texts, what some teacher says is truth?
MN48 tells you how to figure out if you’ve attained the fruit of stream entry. EBT implies path and fruit do not arise together (like for example someone can gain merit before they attain fruit), but traditional theravada texts like abhidhamma say they arise together.
Again, there are many different interpretations by many different monks. From Ven. Ñāṇavīra’s essays to Nanananda, Mahasi Sayadaw to Thai Forest to even different monks within Thai Forest like Bhikkhu Buddhadasa.
Nothing is set in stone, and like I said earlier, everyone has their interpretation, at the end of the day if the piece of the theory reduces stress and improves your life, that’s all that matters.
My own belief is a mix of Nanavira’s phenomenology, Punnaji and Buddhadasa.
I agree with you in most cases from what I see (it’s good that there is a person who sticks to suttas). Path and fruit can arise in the same moment and they may arise with latency. Those two both are right. (as we can see in the suttas based on various cases of Sotapanna attainment)
First, what I say is sutta based (there are different cases). Second, my own experiences are irrelevant as people will challenge them and doubt them one way or another that why I prefer stick to suttas as they pretty much explains everything that needs to be known to attain Nibbana (but not on your own)
If 3 people read the same sutta, are the whole Pali Canon, they probably will have a different understanding. This often shows here too. So, it does not mean a lot when you say your opinions are based on sutta. Opinions are especially based on our own level of avijja, tanha, upadana, dispostions, like, dislike etc. You are really not the only one who reads sutta’s .