Vitakka vicāra (Jhana-factors)

[mikenz66]

Hi frankk,

@frankk

how do you translate the first two lines of first jhana formula? “vivveva kamehi…”. Ven. Sujato, Thanissaro, B.Bodhi all use “sensual pleasures.”

The Third Jhana - 'of which the noble ones declare'

Here, as kāmā is plural, it clearly refers to the external sense stimuli. So yes, I agree with Sylvester; in this case, Ven Thanissaro’s translation is incorrect. However I prefer to avoid the use of the word “object” when talking about early Buddhism. There is no term in the description of sense experience that corresponds with the idea of “object”, which is a translation of the commentarial term ārammaṇa. In the EBTs, sense experience only happens in relationship, hence there is no room for a…

I don’t think this:

@frankk

consider the suttas where buddha is conversing with brahmans and ascetics of outside traditions. when they explain what it means to be liberated in their tradition, the buddha responds with answers such as, “in that case a new born baby… a blind and deaf person… would be liberated.”

is the point here. My understanding of the deep version of jhana is that the seclusion from sense stimuli is not the result of “shutting the eyes and ears and ignoring stimuli”, etc, but that the unification/convergence/etc of mind in the jhana state is such that there is simply no room for the sense stimuli to register anymore.