Vitakka vicāra (Jhana-factors)

[frankk]

@chansik_park

To clarify here I would propose that the sense of “piecing different things together” that comes from the Milindapañha subsumes the sense of “selecting an object”.

i’m not familiar with the full minlinda passage contents, but just based on your brief quotes in the previous msg, it sounds more like he’s talking about the vitakka and vicara of vism. and ajahn brahm. That is, no ordinary discursive thinking and evaluation, but a “fixed penetration” type of absorption for example on a breath nimitta visually perceived white light, or a color disk kasina.

vism. uses an analogy for vitakka and vicara like a bell being struck, with vitakka being the initial strike of the bell, and vicara being the ringing sound that perists for some time. much like the vism. jhana and ajahn brahm jhana where one can not think in the ordinary sense of vitakka and vicara, vitakka and vicara is sticking to the white visual light of breath nimitta or a color kasina.

@chansik_park

taṃ dhammaṃ paññāya pa-vicinati pa-vicarati pari­-vīmaṃ­sa’m-ā­pajjatihe discriminates that Dhamma with wisdom, examines it, makes an investigation of it.

thanks for pointing out that detail. you’re right i bolded the wrong english word originally. i wasn’t sure if dhamma-vicaya’s vicaya was from the same root as vicara (you’re saying it’s not, i believe you), but vicara must be related to pa-vicarati right? pari-vīmamsa sure reminds me of vīmamsa-samādhi-padhāna-sammannagatam, of 4ip (iddhi-pada).

here’s a tangent to another important point. the 4ip are also describing a process of getting into samadhi strong enough to exercise 6 abhiñña, similar to 7sb (satta bojjhanga). but it does so without mentioning piti-sukha, and any of the 4 jhanas by name, but because of the presence of visual light all day and all night, and access to 6 abhinna, one can deduce must be 4th jhana quality samadhi minimum.

so whether one uses the causal sequence of 8aam (8 fold noble path), the causal sequence of 7sb, or the 4ip to get into jhana or a strong samadhi, all of those standard formulas are mapping the same territory but highlighting different aspects of the process, while ignoring others.

so returning to the dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga, for first jhana i see vicara playing an active role with discursive type of thinking/evaluation, just as in the cook sutta SN 47.(some number 10 or less), the cook is evaluating how do i adjust my cooking of dishes to please the king, or in reference to the first jhana analogy, what is going on in my anatomical body and mind, what do i need to adjust in my cooking to produce a deeper samadhi, piti-sasmbojjhanga, and the bliss of first jhana and samadhi-sambojjhanga?

for the 4ip mapping out the same moment by moment process, 4ip’s-vimamsa would take the same role as dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga, as signalled by the pa-vimamsa in SN 46.2.

edit, addition to cook simile comment:
so the ordinary sense of vitakka and vicara doing discursive thinking is very important for the stages prior to, during, and the process of stabilizing first jhana in EBT. If we take vitakka and vicara in the vism. and ajahn brahm sense of sticking the mind exclusively to a color disk or a visual appearance of a white breath nimitta, the cook simile doesn’t make sense because it’s not developing wisdom, discrimination, looking for gradually subtler causes of dukkha that not only prevent entry into first jhana, but the rest of the path to nibbana. You’re just staring at a light or a color disk and trying to blot out every part of your experience of the world. In a straightforward reading of the EBT, jhana and samadhi is something you work on all the time, in every posture, always looking at dukkha and its cause whether you’re in jhana or not, rather than a separate samatha kung fu exercise you do in a formal sitting practice.

[frankk]

@frankk

jhana and samadhi is something you work on all the time, in every posture, always looking at dukkha and its cause whether you’re in jhana or not

AN 5.29 talks about strong samadhi in walking meditation

“Bhikkhus, there are these five benefits of walking meditation. What five? [30] One becomes capable of journeys; one becomes capable of striving; one becomes healthy; what one has eaten, drunk, consumed, and tasted is properly digested; the concentration attained through walking meditation is long lasting.998"" These are the five benefits of walking meditation.”
“pañcime, bhikkhave, caṅkame ānisaṃsā. katame pañca? addhānakkhamo hoti, padhānakkhamo hoti, appābādho hoti, asitaṃ pītaṃ khāyitaṃ sāyitaṃ sammā pariṇāmaṃ gacchati, caṅkamādhigato samādhi ciraṭṭhitiko hoti. ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca caṅkame ānisaṃsā”ti. navamaṃ.

edit, addition: vitakka and vicara in walking meditation would be prominent in samma padhana and samma vayamo, in guarding sense faculties, whether in the attainment or outside of first jhana. Whew! saved myself from being accused of hijacking the thread again.

[chansik_park]

@frankk

vism. uses an analogy for vitakka and vicara like a bell being struck, with vitakka being the initial strike of the bell, and vicara being the ringing sound that perists for some time.

Yes, I’m aware of the resemblance. I’d even suggest that the analogy derives from the passages above somehow. I think the key piece missing from the Vism. analogy though is mention of the sense of “assembly” from the carpenter analogy for vitakka specifically that lends a dynamism to the whole process.

But even then you can throw out the analogies because the crux of the two suttas are to ask the question “kiṃlakkhaṇo?” (“what is the characteristic/mark?”). To which the answer is “appanā” (“correlation”?) for vitakka and “anu­majja­na­” (“clarification”?) for vicāra.

@frankk

vicara must be related to pa-vicarati right?

Yes, I’d say their relatedness is attested to in MN 137, quoted here.

@frankk

so returning to the dhamma-vicaya-sambojjhanga, for first jhana i see vicara playing an active role with discursive type of thinking/evaluation, just as in the cook sutta SN 47.

To note is that the string of characters ‘vic’ do not occur in SN 47.8, much less vicāra or vicarati.

Also, “discursive thinking” should be considered quite distinct from (Thanissaro et. al.'s?) “evaluation”. The former would be closest to papañca, in the sense of proliferation, or vacīsaṅkhāra, in the sense of “mental talk”.

And just to be sure, you’re not saying “ordinary sense of vitakka and vicara” means “mental talk”, right?

@frankk

as signalled by the pa-vimamsa in SN 46.2.

You mean SN 46.3 (the backlinking into your comment from SC proper might confuse others in the future), and pari-.

Also, Frank, mind if I ask whether there’s some reason why you capitalize some of the first letters of your sentences while not others? Is it just a mobile thing or something you prefer to do? I ask because it makes your longer comments harder to read and refer back to with the separation of sentences harder to discern.

[Sylvester]

I wonder if we could have a poll as to whether the First Jhana’s “thought & evaluation” requires intention/volition.

Could you oblige @chansik_park?

The next poll could be what this "thought & evaluation " is on.

[chansik_park]

Sure!

Be it resolved, First Jhana’s “thought & evaluation” as investigative activities of the mind require intention/volition.

Anonymous voting:

• Agree
• DIsagree
• Unsure

Show results

Public voting:

• Agree
• Disagree
• Unsure

Show results

(Just experimenting with the platform @Sylvester)

[Sylvester]

Thanks so much! @chansik_park

I just realised that my original framing of the issue was not precise enough. May I rephrase it as -

The First Jhana’s "thought & evaluation " as investigative activities of the mind require intention/volition.

[chansik_park]

For my own bearings, could you perhaps comment on how it might be generally thought not be the case? I’m at a bit of a loss in this regard.

activities of the mind

In the more precise framing, a mild uncertainty for me here is the relationship between manosaṅkhārā and kāyasaṅkhārā as they appear in the 12-fold PSU/DO. Are they temporally parallel streams of kamma or do they happen “one-at-a-time” very quickly? And in the latter case, does manosaṅkhārā then dominate kāyasaṅkhārā?

Generally speaking, I’m thinking to myself that a temporally precise synthesis of the various causation chains would be helpful.

[Sylvester]

It may be a while before I reply in full, but a more careful exposition would be- “how much intention or thinking can be sustained in the First Jhana?” My quick reply to your DO sankhara query would be - the Volition Aggregate persists in Jhana. But how much of it remains?

BTW, it appears that there are 2 polls. Is one intended to be anonymous?

Now, off to my debauchery, after which I transform into a python.

Thanks for making the change. You’re a gem!

[alaber]

@Sylvester

how much intention or thinking can be sustained in the First Jhana?"

At least the intention to move to the second Jhāna by whatever technic required.

[Sylvester]

Could you describe this please?

[alaber]

Not sure what you are asking?

[Sylvester]

I am asking for your textual sources and their description of how one intends to move from the First Jhana to the Second Jhana. Thank you.

[frankk]

@chansik_park

To note is that the string of characters ‘vic’ do not occur in SN 47.8, much less vicāra or vicarati.

Also, “discursive thinking” should be considered quite distinct from (Thanissaro et. al.'s?) “evaluation”. The former would be closest to papañca, in the sense of proliferation, or vacīsaṅkhāra, in the sense of “mental talk”.

And just to be sure, you’re not saying “ordinary sense of vitakka and vicara” means “mental talk”, right?

I wasn’t trying to be as precise as you, I was trying to emphasize that vitakka and vicara of first jhana, according to a straightforward reading of relevant EBT passsages, is much closer to the vaci-sankhara version of mental talk than vism. and ajahn brahm’s first jhana where the mind is completely absorbed at staring at a color disk or white breath nimitta to the exclusion of any other sensory perception.

For the same reason, I just use the words piti, sukha, pamojja and give a context rather than try to find an english word that fits, because everyone understands those english words differently, and you can’t tell from the english whether its mental, physical, etc, just as you can’t tell from the pali without context.

In SN 47.8 (the cook sutta), the mental activity of the cook to do his job, I would say is mental talk vaci-sankhara, and the corresponding skilled bhikkhu doing 4sp (satipatthana) is also using mental talk, prior to first jhana and in first jhana. So even though it’s not using the word “vicara” in that sutta, I think it’s fair to assume it’s not against the law, allowable within the STED (standard EBT definition) for 1st jhana’s sa-vitakka, sa-vicara to do in satipatthana and first first jhana.

evameva kho, bhikkhave, idh’-ekacco
so too, monks: here,-some
paṇḍito byatto kusalo bhikkhu
wise, competent, skilful monk,
kāye kāy-ānupassī viharati
body (as) body-contemplating (he) dwells,
ātāpī sampajāno satimā,
ardent, clearling-comprehending, mindful,
vineyya loke abhijjhā-domanassaṃ.
having-removed worldly greed-and-distress.
tassa kāye kāy-ānupassino viharato
(while) [doing] body (as) body-contemplating (he) dwells,
cittaṃ samādhiyati,
mind (becomes) concentrated,
upakkilesā pahīyanti.
corruptions abandoned.
so taṃ nimittaṃ uggaṇhāti.
** that sign {he} learns.

vedanāsu vedanānupassī viharati … pe …
(same process for 2nd satipaṭṭhāna …)
citte cittānupassī viharati … pe …
(same process for 3rd satipaṭṭhāna …)
dhammesu dhammānupassī viharati
(same process for 4th satipaṭṭhāna …)

So here you have citta samadhi (i.e. first jhana or higher) and satipatthana happening concurrently. The reward for the skillful cook is a raise, the reward for the skillful cook is the piti and sukha of samadhi stated at the end of the sutta.

There are several suttas like this, where satipatthana, vitakka, vicarra, jhana, are happening concurrently.

@chansik_park

Also, Frank, mind if I ask whether there’s some reason why you capitalize some of the first letters of your sentences while not others? Is it just a mobile thing or something you prefer to do? I ask because it makes your longer comments harder to read and refer back to with the separation of sentences harder to discern.

Sorry, I’ll try to use more captitalization in the future. It was a conscious decision to economize my time. Death as always, is lurking around the corner. I complained to Bhante Sujato that the pali texts, not using captilalization, punctuation, compound word delimiters, made it hard as hell to read. He said with practice, you get used to it. I’ve practiced, and I’m not used it. It still bites.

[alaber]

The stock formulas that describe the four jhanas clearly indicate that the practitioner moves from jhana to jhana with element(s) of the present jhana subsiding and new elements possibly appearing. It is clear that in jhana the practitioner is fully aware of what’s going on and can have intentions about what to do such as stay there, exit or move up or down from jhana to jhana.
As usual what’s missing in the suttas is the how-to that the practitioner has to use for the various processes to occur. For this we have to rely on those who have succeeeded. Leigh Brasington (Ayya Khema US student) in his book Right Concentration proposes for example for moving from jhana 1 to jhana 2 that one takes a deep breath and focus on sukha, by this piti becomes less preminent and vittaka-vicara subsides. He has other technics for moving to jhana 3 then jhana 4.

[Sylvester]

Could you develop your reasoning on your first paragraph? How do the pericopes demonstrate your earlier point that a meditator intends to move from one jhana to the next, presumably whilst in a jhana?

PS - is this intention that moves a meditator from jhana to jhana also the kind of intention that enables the psychic powers in the jhana pericopes?

[alaber]

To me the pericopes show clearly that moving from Jhana to Jhana is the result of some of the elements of the current jhana disappearing and new elements appearing. This process happens as result of the practitioner intention.
I cannot comment on the psychic powers which anyway are not part of the jhana pericopes.

[Sylvester]

This is the part that is quite puzzling. How do you arrive at this conclusion based on the pericope? I do not disagree with you that intention is required for the transitioning. But your original proposition was -

At least the intention to move to the second Jhāna by whatever technic required

in response to my query of what intention there is in the First Jhana. Presumably, you are saying that the pericopes demonstrate that intention is required for the transition. That I do not disagree. But how did you surmise that the pericopes also say that intention is required within a jhana in order to move to the next jhana?

Thanks for your time.

[alaber]

@Sylvester

intention is required within a jhana

Of course it is within jhana that moving to another jhana occurs.
I found it impossible to interpret the pericope as implying that one has to completly go out of the jhana one is in in order to go to another jhana by restarting from before jhana 1 and also that in jhana there is no possible intention.
I just take two aspects from AN5.28:

1. After having entered the 1st jhana the bhikkhu “makes piti and sukha born of seclusion drench, steep, fill, and pervade his body”. I believe “body” is the physical body, but even if you don’t agree on this point, the activities of drenching, steeping, etc. imply an active mind including intention.
2. To enter the 3rd jhana the bhikkhu dwells “mindful and clearly comprehending, he experiences sukha with the body”. These describe an active mind to me not one onepointedly stuck.

[Sylvester]

Re 1, why do you interpret the formula as entailing contemporaneity of the "upasampajja viharati " (enters and dwells) with the permeation of the “body” with zest and pleasure? Does this mean you reject the grammars when they explain that the former is a durative periphrasis? That “dwells” is an auxiliary verb to the governing verb “having entered” and they are essentially talking about the experience being longish? If you do reject this, are you demanding that wherever this periphrasis occurs, the next sentence is contemporaneous to the periphrasis. That seems impossible in eg this pericope -

Furthermore, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, he enters & remains in the cessation of feeling & perception. Seeing with discernment, his fermentations were totally ended.

Surely you accept that it is impossible to see anything in Cessation, when perception is absent?

Re 2, what part of the pericope implies an active mind? Would a person feeling absorbed in pleasure imply an active mind? Or are you reading mindfulness and clear awareness as signs of such activity? Could you define “active” without getting the sati enlightenment factor confused with another enlightenment factor that is active?

[alaber]

I don’t read pali. I took the AN5.28 words from Bhikkhu Bodhi text. I only took a small component to illustrate my point. The whole AN5.28 describes so vividly what’s happening and what to do in jhana practice, I don’t see how else these can be interpreted.

I sincerely wish you that your practice gives you the answer to how jhanas work.