War in Europe 💔

The Watercooler
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@Metaphor, since you are a political scientist by trade, I’d like to pass something by you that I’ve thought about. There is this general crisis of democracy that’s been ongoing in the world, America included, and so I’ve been reading various things to try to piece together what can be done. Because, well, I’m one of those people who can’t stop themselves from thinking about these things even though I have zero influence on anything or anyone other than maybe my cat.

But something I’ve noticed is that there is a general pattern that many countries have suffered when they move from an authoritarian political system to a more democratic one. It’s different from one case to the next in the details, but in the bigger picture, a liberal revolution or sudden change to a democracy is often followed by a counter-revolution. The French Revolution leads to Napoleon. The Weimar Republic leads to Hitler. Japan’s change to constitutional monarchy leads to becoming a militarist colonial power and military dictatorship. China collapses into feuding warlords and then to Marxism after deposing the Qing dynasty and attempting to become a republic. Gorbachev’s perestroika leads to Putin’s illiberal democracy, which has happened in Poland and Hungary, too. Even the United States became an aggressive colonial power after their revolution.

Is this something that political scientists have noticed and tried to explain? It seems that these struggles, which are often quite violent and terrible, between reformers and reactionaries is a general historical pattern across cultures. The “growing pains” of becoming a democracy can be painful for everyone in the general vicinity of the country in question.

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Which leaves them forever vulnerable to attack and that’s exactly why this is Putin’s demand. Sweden, Finland, Moldova are now looking into joining NATO because they fear invasion.

I’m not sure what you mean by stability? The Syrian civil war is still ongoing, and Putin decided to join and bomb cities together with Assad, another dictator.

I’m not saying western governments have a better track record.

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Some of us here are monastics (Bhikkhus, Samaneras or even Anagarikas) and living the lifestyle of a monastic usually means that one doesn’t spend too much time updating oneself on current affairs around the world. Before mass media people didn’t have the problem of news bombarding their minds. Given that some of us are committed to this lifestyle it also can mean that whatever ways we try to update ourselves on this matter can be very superficial and the conclusions made by such superficial analysis can lead to wrong conclusions. Let us remember that.
Regardless of whether one is monastic or lay its best to assume that what we get to read or hear about today’s wars could be just a whisper in our ear compared to what is really going on. Therefore it is best not to jump to quick conclusions as to who is correct and who is wrong. In wars usually both sides have their dirt. The world is not black and white as we like to see it based on our wishful thinking.
The media tends to distort a lot of information and I can tell you this from personal experience. I am originally from Sri Lanka and living in the West I could appreciate how the Western media distorted the context of events that happened during the Sri Lankan civil war. Unsuspecting westerners who dont really know what is going on are now quick to take sides and come to conclusions which are not only incorrect but also dangerous.
The media will give a sensationalised story of how an interviewer or a reporter got emotional when taking about a 6 year old girl dying by a Russian missile strike. When did you hear about reporters crying when Afghan or Iraqi children dying from American air strikes in those countries? News is a way of changing people’s opinion where even bad things can be made to look good or justified to say the least. We have already seen this in the history of Europe with Operation Gladio where part of that involved spin doctors to spin stories to change the opinion of the masses.
Looking at the bigger picture, wars will continue to happen as long as people identify with man made fictions such as the concept of nation states, political ideology or ethnic/linguistic identity.

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Yeah, and like a traumatized child they stick to the bullies they’ve come to get used to, that doesn’t threaten them directly as long as they obey and play by the rules. And you point to the same as I do.

We are ruled by traumatized grown children, which only see the enemy outside the gates, and dare not to look within the gates, at all the shadows and hurts.

I wouldn’t be surprised at all if the next happening is that these countries will get what they want, and I’m quite sure that what they want is not what is needed.

I love the artist, not just because I’m lazy and like to indulge a bit into entertainment, but because an artist has to use the whole of his or her brains to produce something that hits me right at home, home of the heart.

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The current violence in Syria is incomparable with the situation before the Russian intervention, and it is still happening due to American and Turkish support. The areas that are under the Assad rule, which is circa 80% of Syria is stable. I have relatives who live there. Before the war, they hated Al Assad, but after seeing the alternatives, they became more forgiving of the likes of Assad and Putin.

Same thing can be said about Iraq. Before the American intervention, few liked Saddam, now he is a martyr. Same thing can be said about Afghanistan and Taliban.

I hope the Ukrainians will have better experiences, but i doubt it. They have much more in common with their Russian brethren than the west. They could have sought reforms without taking sides, but saying that now wont change anything , would it?

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Yeah, I refuse my so-called free will to make one person which is to blame for anything that goes on and like to believe that this refusal comes out of doing a lot of introspection and thereby seeing my own capabilities to become a Putin.
And by the way, what is me shouting out now gonna do for peace?

And of course, we all rush to those who suffer now, something else would go against our true nature, but in this rush, there may also be those who do this not out of compassion, but as means to strike at the enemy, and another thing is where is compassion when this mess is over? I see In my own country that we are one of those who gives the most when needed, and we are also very efficient becoming one of those who forget and push out the needy ones when the eyes of the world have turned to the next interesting event, events like maybe FIFA 2022 …

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In broad terms, I really want to applaud you and people like you.

I, of course, abhor killing. But I think it is remarkable that, overall, as the Ukranian people have been backed into a corner and faced immense pressure to kill Russian soldiers, they seem to largely have maintained a spirit of friendliness towards the Russian people collectively. Volodymyr Zelenskyy has repeatedly addressed Russians and Belorussians as brothers and neighbors. It’s not quite keeping your heart free of hatred as bandits saw you limb from limb, but it’s inspiring.

Unfortunately, the polluted mindset of Putin is not unique to him, but it is surely not common to all Russians. And whenever it does spread to a new person, that person is themselves a victim. Virtue is our true wealth and wellbeing.

My country has so often been involved in wars where we demonize the enemy, as much as it saddens me to see a new war, it inspires me to see a lack of this demonization.

To be clear, the US (as well as France and, of course, Spain) has repeatedly conquered and occupied Mexico, including backing Despotic Regimes, and this is a real strain on Mexican-American relations, including contributing as a backdrop to the famous “Zimmerman Telegram” incident (which, of course, failed - but it’s notable anyone tried). Mexico has actually manifested real support for a number of Latin American groups the US opposes, e.g. the Sandanistas and Communist Cuba.

Mexico is not a NATO country, has the capacity to manufacture nuclear weapons (but has not exercised that capability and is a party to several treaties prohibiting it). It does not have any formal alliances, but was part of the “non-aligned movement” during the cold war.

None of this is really pertinent to the current invasion of Ukraine. I’m just saying this to highlight even further that these “What if Mexico…” hypotheticals don’t make any sense. Mexico is a unique country with a rich history, not a metaphor that exists for the sake of rhetorical arguments.

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This is a phenomenon that has been studied by both historians and political scientists (and a smattering of sociologists), but scholars would also say that one has to be careful about making overly broad generalizations (despite the fact that this is what scholars often do). People who study political change point out that there a lot of historical and regional circumstances that need to be taken into consideration. The economic conditions surrounding political change also come into play. Additionally, scholars are quick to note that in the history of politics, democracy is a relatively recent invention. Until relatively recent times most organized political systems were not based on democratic principles. So it is fairly unsurprising that transitions from authoritarian to democratic governance are not always unidirectional, to use a metaphor.

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To a complete amateur of international politics it also seems odd how prof. Mearsheimer places so much emphasis on what Putin has said or has not said. Like here:

Q: When you said that no one’s talking about this as imperialism, in Putin’s speeches he specifically refers to the “territory of the former Russian Empire,” which he laments losing. So it seems like he’s talking about it.
A: I think that’s wrong, because I think you’re quoting the first half of the sentence, as most people in the West do. He said, “Whoever does not miss the Soviet Union has no heart.” And then he said, “Whoever wants it back has no brain.”

Russian-based veteran journalist Vladimir Pozner does the same here (just a warning, the YT-channel hosting this clip is trash) when he says that the west doesn’t think that the red lines Putin has set are really red and how this is a man who “says what he means”. There is just one problem here: you can’t trust anything Putin says. Cases in point:

This was EIGHT days ago. pic.twitter.com/TwbOji0gc8

— Glenn Kates (@gkates) March 1, 2022

❗Embassy statement pic.twitter.com/cHlAJ1JaA4

— Russia in Canada (@RussianEmbassyC) March 2, 2022

We can go back all the way to the founding fathers of the United States of America in order to find the “real causes” for this crisis. However, one thing to remember is that Putin is a man who has build a huge empire of lies with his troll-factories, money-grabs, violent suppression of opposition, mobilization of all kinds of crazy extremists and brutal curbing of the free press. These kind of things don’t happen just because someone doesn’t respect your red lines and geopolitical boundaries. And his minions have tormented journalists and activists in Russia, Finland and everywhere else for years. It doesn’t seem rational to cherry-pick his statements to find support for your over-arching academic theory or try to defend him as some kind of a victim who no one takes seriously. If sensible people find it hard to take you and your statements seriously there just might be some reasons behind it.

Putin’s words are all filled with lies and deceit, that is how he rolls. Of course, there is something to analyze there, like warning signs and hints of his aims and personality, but to just take his words at face value when he says he is not going to do something? Doesn’t seem that wise to me.

And it definitely doesn’t make sense to just paint Putin as someone who “the West” has poked and who is just reacting to this poking. He is a very sinister man who has all along had all kinds of sinister plans. These lines by Russian sociologist Grigory Yudin made me shiver:

“Today we are on the brink of an immense war. Its potential participants possess nuclear weapons, which certain people are already threatening to use. Words like “Nazi” or “de-Nazification” are far from harmless — in current discourse, they have the potential for total dehumanization and set the stage of all kinds of “final solutions.” And we shouldn’t exclude the possibility that the response will be in a similar vein…”

At the same time I have to echo what I said earlier in this thread. I really hope that the leaders of Europe and US are still looking for ways to end this war without it turning into WW3. Even if it has to happen through a bitter and lukewarm deal that frustrates everyone. Just like to end with this quote from the aforementioned interview with Yudin:

How much should we expect each person to find their foothold? And what has to happen to make Elvira Nabiullina [the head of Russia’s Central Bank] or, say, Sergei Shoigu [defence minister of Russia] behave differently?

"That’s between them and their God. You know, right now we’re in a moment that, for all its uniqueness, nonetheless recalls the events of the 20th century. Hannah Arendt, I think, very rightly said on this point that there are times when you have to accept your powerlessness to change the world as a whole and figure out what you’re personally responsible for — in such a way that afterwards you’re able to live with yourself, that you can stand to look at yourself in the mirror.

That’s the most important question each person has to answer for themselves, with the understanding that the situation could, and likely will, develop according to a worst-case scenario."

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Quite right. Among the inconsistencies in Mearsheimer’s realist thesis is his argument on the one hand that states operate on the basis of power (and therefore individual leaders are interchangeable) and his reference to the thoughts and statements of Vladimir Putin on the other. If Mearsheimer were consistent in his theorizing he would argue that it doesn’t matter who is in charge of Russia. To the extent Mearsheimer looks to Putin for clues regarding Russia’s intentions he (Mearsheimer) is violating one of the main tenets of realist theory.

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Dhammapada - The Just

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Well, sure. It just seems to me a bit like malpractice to encourage countries to adopt democracy and then have them go berserk over and over again as has happened in the past century or two. It’s not that I think it’s wrong to encourage democratization, it’s just that these are really horrible disasters in many cases. I thought perhaps this had been studied in detail. I suppose scholars own personal philosophies may get in the way. I started reading Fukuyama’s Political Order and Decay, but when it comes to prescriptions, he seems as lost as I am. Perhaps there aren’t any solutions. Human politics just involves alot of bloodshed and suffering.

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There are numerous theories of transitions from authoritarianism to democracy. I have a student right now writing a paper about this topic. As it turns out, however, scholars are far better at creating systems for cataloguing and categorizing systems of governments than at coming up with explanations for why political change occurs.

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This is a big part of Putin’s reasoning for the invasion. Can’t we let the Ukrainians themselves decide what they want for their future?

My hope is that one day, we can get over the 19th century (by the way, mostly western) obsession over which people on a certain map should be in within which borders. We never listen to what those people want for themselves. And we are so attached to the idea that, when we draw the borders “correctly”, there will be “stability”.

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Whether the Ukrainians decided for themselves or not is uncertain, as decisions are not free from influences and consequences. Technically, people or nations can always decide for themselves, but to assume that their decisions are the best decisions, or that others should accept it at face value by virtue of acknowledging it as “their decision” does not make sense in my opinion. In other words, it is nonsensical to assume that the Russians have to accept the will of the Ukrainian people (assuming that it is their will). They evidently did not accept it. Does that make it any less “their decision”?

What a map comes to portray or represent is the earth element, which has its gravitational force in worldly affairs. More often than not, the mind correlates with the body and cultures, ethnicity, identities and mentalities seem to follow the ways of geography. This is why, Ukrainians and Taiwanese are closer to Russians and Chinese than the west. I do not see technology changing the persistence of this fact as much as overlooking it, hence most thought experiments that tries to shed doubt on the centrality of the body inevitably refer to it. This is why, the Buddha taught that those who identify with the body are less deluded than those who identify with the mind.

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yes. In these days perhaps is good to remember how time ago some Buddhists followers were engaged in a political effort against the previous president of the USA, who was a proponent of a more peaceful relation with Russia. And in that aspect, objectively the world was safer and peaceful at those times. Well, today their political wishes of change has been accomplished, and now there is this new war.

And again in this new conflict, one can read how some of the same political engaged Buddhists are supporting this or that TV images and media narratives. One could ask if their new choosings supporting this or that, it could end in the same success than in the previous occasion.

Not my intention try to defend any political position. Just to show how easy is to be engaged in wrong kamma because no real knowledge of what happens in these events.

To avoid the engagement in bad kamma, the only right choosing is wishing the end of conflicts and safety and wellfare for the whole world.

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That’s the easy thing, isn’t it? Keeps us busy like a factory worker who should always be doing something even if it’s not actually useful. They still get a pat on the back for being industrious.

There is this way of thinking we have today the prevents people from solving these types of human problems. We like systems, numbers, true-false axioms bereft of exceptions. So dreaded are exceptions to us, those reminders that artificial ways of thinking don’t reflect reality. They must be rejected and avoided at all costs, so we pursue structures of thought that are certain and definable in a way that avoids ambiguity. It’s all so very mechanistic. Most Westerners have no idea, but it’s also very Soviet. We hide behind ideas for safety and let society collapse around us out of self-interest.

We create categories and principles quite well, but don’t know how to apply them to life. Or, worse, we try to force life to reflect artificial categories and principles, even if it means having to literally genocide everyone who doesn’t fit or reject them in some rare cases. In ordinary cases, we just refuse to act to improve people’s lives or solve problems because there’s some logic or concept that stands in the way. I wish people would get over this and start being pragmatic again. Life is better than ideas.

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Well, yes, but neither life nor ideas get you tenure. Publications do.

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It’s so sad seeing the war proceed and all illusions about a peaceful Europe fall into pieces! :cry:

I am currently translating the 3rd Saᚁyutta in the SN, the chapter about king Pasenadi of Kosala. Thanks to Venerable @Jhanarato for the inspiration! :heart:

This chapter is interesting in that it takes the perspective of a person in political power. Pasenadi is, on one hand, a devout follower of the Buddha who on some occasions is very emotional in expressing his faith in the Buddha; and on the other hand he is struggling with worldly affairs, including war, that are part of his responsibility as a state ruler.

And although he is not depicted as the wisest of the Buddha’s disciples, he understands very well what are the important things in life: not your possessions or power will be with you when you die, but solely the actions that you do in this life. Death is inevitable, there’s no loophole. And no sort of war will protect you from death, nor from the consequences of your bad deeds.

He draws his conclusions, and I’d say if the world’s rulers would show a similar amount of wisdom, we’d be much better off!

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This is a crucial point in this conversation Venerable since it brings us back to the Dhamma. Just sitting and thinking about it is very overwhelming :frowning:

The three poisons are so deeply imbedded in the minds of beings, they ignore this fundamental truth. We can’t escape our bad deeds, yet we continue to do them. Look what suffering comes of it…A misguided leader creates this on a mass scale. But we are all in the same boat, at some level or the other. We may have done this in the past, or may in the future if we don’t keep with the N8FP. I have this image of the Bhavacackra as a reminder

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just have to strive to follow the Path and get off the wheel …:pray:t3:

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