Was Buddha Vipassi awakened through deductive reasoning?

Does the passage below, from DN14, imply that Buddha Vipassi’s Insight, Vision and Awakening came through deductive reasoning?

‘Now there arose, brethren, in the mind of Vipassī the Bodhisat, when he had gone to his place, and was meditating in seclusion, the following consideration—“Verily this world has fallen upon trouble; one is born, and grows old, and dies, and falls from one state, and springs up in another.”

‘“And from this suffering, moreover, no one knows of any way of escape, even from decay and death. O when shall a way of escape from this suffering be made known, from decay and from death!”

‘Then to Vipassī the Bodhisat, brethren, this occurred—“What now being present, is birth also present; what conditions birth?” Then, brethren, from attention to the cause arose the conviction through reason—“When becoming is, birth also is present; becoming is the condition of birth.”

‘Then to Vipassī the Bodhisat, brethren, this occurred—“What now being present, is becoming also present; what conditions becoming? “Then, brethren, from attention to the cause arose the conviction through reason—“Where grasping is, there is becoming; grasping is the condition of becoming.”

‘Then to Vipassī the Bodhisat, brethren, this occurred—“What now being present, is grasping also present; what conditions grasping? “Then, brethren, from attention to the cause arose the conviction through reason—“Where craving is, there is grasping; craving is the condition of grasping.”

‘Then to Vipassī the Bodhisat, brethren, this occurred—“What now being present, is craving also present; what conditions craving?” Then, brethren, from attention to the cause arose the conviction through reason—“Where feeling is, there is craving:; feeling is the condition of craving-.”

‘Then to Vipassī the Bodhisat, brethren, this occurred—“What now being present, is feeling also present; what conditions feeling? “Then, brethren, from attention to the cause arose the conviction through reason—“Where contact is, there is feeling; contact is the condition of feeling.”

‘Then to Vipassī the Bodhisat, brethren, this occurred—“What now being present, is the sixfold field also present; what conditions the sixfold field? “Then, brethren, from attention to the cause arose the conviction through reason—“Where name-and-form is, there is the sixfold field; name-and-form is the condition of the sixfold field.”

‘Then to Vipassī the Bodhisat, brethren, this occurred—“What now being present, is name-and-form also present; what conditions name-and-form?”

Then, brethren, from attention to the cause arose the conviction through reason—“Where cognition is there is name-and-form; cognition is the condition of name-and-form.”

‘Then to Vipassī the Bodhisat, brethren, this occurred—“What now being present, is cognition also present; what conditions cognition?’ Then, brethren, from attention to the cause arose the conviction through reason—“Where name-and-form is, there is cognition; name-and-form conditions cognition.”

‘Then to Vipassī the Bodhisat, brethren, this occurred—“Cognition turns back from name-and-form; it goes not beyond. Only as follows can one be born or stow old or die or fall from one condition or reappear in another; that is, in that cognition is conditioned by name-and-form, and name-and-form by cognition, the sixfold field by name-and-form, contact by the sixfold field, feeling by contact, craving by feeling, grasping by craving, becoming by grasping, birth by becoming, decay and dying by birth, and so too grief, lamentation, ill, sorrow and despair come to pass. Such is the coming to be of this entire body of Ill.”

‘“Coming to be, coming to be!”—at that thought, brethren, there arose to Vipassī the Bodhisat a vision into things not called before to mind, and knowledge arose, reason arose, wisdom arose, light arose.

‘Then to Vipassī the Bodhisat, brethren, this occurred—“What now being absent, is decay and dying also absent; by the ceasing of what does decay and dying cease?” Then, brethren, from attention to the cause arose the conviction through reason—“Where birth is absent, decay and dying are absent; when birth ceases, decay and dying cease … Where becoming is absent, birth is absent; when becoming-ceases, birth ceases … Where grasping is absent, becoming is absent; when grasping ceases, becoming ceases … Where craving is absent, grasping is absent; when craving ceases, grasping ceases … Where feeling is absent, craving is absent; when feeling ceases, craving ceases … Where contact is absent, feeling is absent; when contact ceases, feeling ceases … Where the sixfold field is absent, contact is absent; when the sixfold field ceases, contact ceases … Where name-and-form is absent, the sixfold field is absent; when name-and-form ceases, the sixfold field ceases … Where cognition is absent, name-and-form is absent; when cognition ceases, name-and-form ceases … Where name-and-form is absent, cognition is absent; when name-and-form ceases, cognition ceases.”

‘Then to Vipassī the Bodhisat, brethren, this occurred—“Lo! I have won to this, the Way to enlightenment through insight. And it is this, that from name-and-form ceasing, cognition ceases, and conversely; that from name-and-form ceasing, the sixfold field ceases; from the sixfold field ceasing, contact ceases; from contact ceasing, feeling ceases; from feeling ceasing, craving ceases; from craving ceasing, grasping ceases; from grasping ceasing, becoming ceases; from becoming ceasing, birth ceases; from birth ceasing, decay and dying, grief, lamentation, ill, sorrow and despair cease. Such is the ceasing of this entire body of Ill.”

; Thereafter, brethren, Vipassī the Bodhisat dwelt in the discernment of the rising and passing away of the five groups [of individual life] depending on grasping—“Such is form, such is the coming to be of form, such is its passing away; such is feeling, such is the coming to be of feeling, such is its passing away; such is perception, such is its coming to be, such is its passing away; such are the syntheses, such is their coming to be, such is their passing away; such is cognition, such is its coming to be, such is its passing away.”

‘And for him, abiding in the discernment of the rising and passing away of the five groups depending on grasping, not long was it before his heart, void of grasping, was set free from the “Intoxicants.”

I also suggest SN 12.65 - all Buddhas that ever existed became enlightened in the same way.

Technically yes, but in reality NO. In my topic about stream entry I have shown how everybody who achieved stream entry in the suttas (hundreds of cases, probably 100 suttas) did so through intelectually grasping higher teachings. Those who were normal people achieved only steam entry (even a serial killer did it) while those who were ascetics usually achieved non-returning and arahanthip when exposed to these higher teachings discovered by the Buddha.

But things work differently for a Buddha. For a person to discover these higher teachings by himself, he needs to be a very very advanced person and poses jhana. That is why Buddha achieved instant arahanthip when discovering them through deductive reasoning, because he already was a very advanced ascetic.

So if a Buddha were not to exist and present us these higher teachings, a person would need to be as advaneced as an arahant in terms of seclusion to discover them by himself and become a “silent Buddha”. This insight can not occur by itself to a random person through deductive reasoning. But now that there exist a Buddha sansa and the teachings are available, there is no need for us to re-discover them and become “silent Buddhas”

If you are wandering what does level of seclusion have to do with wisdom and capability to discover such things (since this appears to have to do with inteligence), check that sutta about a person who can not see things clearly if there is sloth and topor (compared to muddy water), ill will (compared to boiling water), sensual desire (compared to colored water) etc. That is why arahants are said to be liberated “though wisdom”. The more secluded the person, the more wisdom he will have.

So in the absence of a Buddha sansa, there can never exist stream enterers or one-returners or non-returners. There can only exist arahants called “silent Buddhas”.

I don’t know much about the back story of Buddha Vipassi - who is the focus of this thread/topic - but what the DN14 tells us is that his ascetic life was pretty much about wearing robes and thinking about these things - no explicit link to jhanas or samadhi is made!

Hence the question: Did Buddha Vipassi’s Insight, Vision and Awakening come through deductive reasoning?

Yes, that is how it came. There is also a sutta about the other 5 buddhas of our sansa + our current Buddha achieving enlightenment when these questions occured to them. Before that, they were not enlightened. Our current Buddha too was advanced in seclusion, was a hardcore ascetic but untill the night of his enlightenment when these questions occured to him, he was not enlightened. This is what made the difference between him and other ascetics of his time.

Buddha Vipassi was a Buddha, witch means he was an arahant too. And just like our current Buddha, he achieved arahanthip instantaniously, not stream enty - then once returner - etc. And this is because of the reasons I explained above. Only an advanced person can discover by himself these “higher teachings” about how the world works. All who ever discovered this by themselves achieved arahanthip instantaniously and became Buddhas or “Silent Buddhas”. But luckily their teachings are now available and we do not need to become silent buddhas to discover them.

In the suttas, normal people who get exposed to these higher teachings achieve only stream entry. Those who were ascetics achieve non-returning or arahanthip on the spot. But these higher teachings are not important in western buddhism. Over here, everybody tries to become a silent buddha by himself and achieve arahantship directly.

Maybe this is your view but it seems that Buddha Gotama’s awakening was not without a cause. In the MN81 he tells us of how he got his first contact with the Dhamma and very much likely that was the seed for his supreme awakening 2,500 years ago (the SN1.50 seems to confirm the relationship between the Buddha and the deva who previously was Ghatikara).

The question is whether in a similar Buddha Vipassi’s awakening can also be traced to a previous Buddha (as suggested can be the case as per ‘the big picture sutta’ SN46.3) and therefore what the DN14 tells us is maybe a over simplified account of the events.

What you are asking now is about what kamma Buddha had. Well, certainly he had good kamma.

Have you checked SN 12.65 ? There are also suttas in the same subchapter of “book of causation” explaining all Buddhas of the past achieved enlightenment in the same way.

The same seems to be reported about Gotama in SN 12.10.

Hi, yes, it is as well a partial parallel to DN14.

Note that given the dependently originated of things and the fact that Buddha Gotama is explicitly told to have been a bhikkhu under a previous Buddha’s dispensation it is more likely that the path and the liberation was not attained by him without a previous cause.

The issue and the question here, however, is what may have been the cause of Buddha Vipassi’s awakening?

Was his insight and liberation totally detached from a previous contact with the Dhamma as implied in DN14?

Or maybe his liberation as well could be traced back to a previous Buddha now “outside” our memory and accounts?

Yes, but that may not the whole of the story as the MN81 and SN1.50 clearly indicate that Buddha Gotama was once a Jotipala who ordained under Buddha Kassapa - and very much likely it was then when he got his first contact with the Dhamma, or at least the Noble Eightfold Path and the teachings and implications of dependent origination.

This would contradict SN 56.11, which states:

This noble truth…in regard to things unheard before, there arose in me vision, knowledge, wisdom, true knowledge and light.

The same in SN 12.10:

"‘Arising, arising!’ — At this thought, monks, there arose in me, concerning things unheard of before, vision, knowledge, understanding, light.

It does, but what to do with the Jotipala story then?!

How can it be unheard before if in the MN81 and SN1.50 he is clearly implying he was once a bhikkhu under a previous Buddha’s dispensation? Of course those teachings were around back then, right?

The way I make sense of this apparent contradiction is that the teaching is not carried across lifetimes but its “seeds” are.

Then, all that the Buddha-to-be needed to do was to “make it happen” by exploring stillness with right attention, and those things occurred to him. :slight_smile:

This would contradict SN 56.11, which states:

This noble truth…in regard to things unheard before, there arose in me vision, knowledge, wisdom, true knowledge and light.

Things unherd before in his current life of course. As for Buddha past, clearly he was at least a stream enterer some time in the past. A stream enterer is reborn a maximum of 7 times. A person who becomes a Buddha at 25 yo clearly has been a stream enterer in the past and heard the dhamma in the past. But as you may have noticed, you don’t remember things from past lives unless you are an arahant. You don’t even remember things from before age 3.

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Hence the question, is there any EBT source which confirms that it was the case of Buddha Vipassi as well that his awakening was somehow affected by a previous contact with the Dhamma and hence it was not solely based on deductive reasoning?

No, because people do not remember information from past lives. He did not remember dependent origination from a past life, he discovered it by himself in the current life through deductive reasoning. As shown it this quote by Deelee:

This noble truth…in regard to things unheard before, there arose in me vision, knowledge, wisdom, true knowledge and light.


"‘Arising, arising!’ — At this thought, monks, there arose in me, concerning things unheard of before, vision, knowledge, understanding, light.

Well, but Buddha Gotama did recall having met (and ordained as a monk under) a Buddha before and I don’t see anything stoping me from connecting the dots and hinting that - as SN46.3 suggests - getting to meet and being near such beings is a way of “dooming” oneself towards liberation.

Please understand I am not challenging what you guys are quoting (and I thank you for repeatedly doing so!).

What I am after here is any sort of EBT reference which hints whether Buddha Vipassi could as well point to a previous lifetime in which he got in touch with the Dhamma as well - something like a back story of Buddha Vipassi and how he got himself “doomed” to awaken.

This is for DN14 hints he was the first of the lineage the Buddha had memory of and its account of his awakening may not be the whole of the story behind it (I recall once reading a even longer list of past Buddhas than the one found in DN14).

Is it now clear what I trying to investigate here? :slight_smile:

Any Buddha had contact with the dhamma before because any Buddha had clearly been at least a stream enterer before his last life. Actually, since he returned only once to the human world, that means he was a once-returner. Or a stream enterer because it is not specified that 7 lives are mandatory. One might very well come back just 1 time if he does a lot of effort in that life or meets favorable conditions.

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