Interesting. I avoid the folktales as they seem quite a mix, and i have not seen these as fostering sila.
For me, reading them might be taking up an unwieldy set of parcels, which would make necessary their dissection.
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Hi Tony
For me, the most important thing was realising Buddhism is not the same as the Buddha’s teaching. Then asking myself, ‘am I really interested in Buddhism, or is it the Buddha’s teaching I am interested in?’ Since the answer was ‘the Buddha’s teaching’, then the path, for me, was distinguishing the essentials from the unessentials, Buddhism from the Buddha’s teaching, which, in my opinion, belongs to no individual or group.
Any version of Buddhism may claim to teach the Buddha’s teaching, but, I believe no version of Buddhism has the full message of the Buddha. I do believe it can be found through ‘thorough investigation’ (quote the Buddha) of the early Buddhist texts and only by applying the study advice the Buddha is recorded to have given for his teaching.
One very simple example: various traditions bow differently, mostly all bow to images of the Buddha. Firstly, I heard images of the Buddha image did not arise till Alexander the Great got to NW India and the Greeks taught the Indians how to make realistic statues. Secondly, early Buddhist art did not depict the Buddha, but left an empty space or had a symbol for him. Thirdly, worship towards his living body was discouraged by the Buddha in the early texts (Mahāparinibbāna sutta). Fourthly, he said practising his teaching was the way to show respect in his teaching, as the alternative to that type of worship (Mahāparinibbāna sutta). Fifthly, though visitors might be allowed to bow to an image in their own way, students in a tradition would be expected to conform.
best wishes
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I certainly believe developing sīla is essential, but that we first have to define what it is, including it’s purpose.
Not sure i agree with statements entirely, but - you have offered interesting questions.
What is sila?
What is the purpose of sila?
May we be happy, peaceful, and ultimately freed from suffering.
thanks. I feel glad you at least value my questions as interesting.
There are many places a definition of sīla is implied, but I do not recall anywhere in the suttas, that it is clearly defined by the Buddha, such as, ‘I call x sīla’.
I doubt anyone who had not applied at least the recorded advice the Buddha gave for studying his teaching would agree with things I say (statements I make) that question a traditional stance.
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@Brother_Joe i think perhaps you misunderstand me. I find your questions and comments very interesting. Please do not take my refraining from judgement as unfriendly or disrespectful.
i try to avoid stances unless i am exercising 
and while i have some apparently traditional views and some apparently nontraditional views, i try to avoid attachment to them.
Would another thread be appropriate? Don’t want to hijack. But i really could enjoy & benefit from discussing this topic, imo.
Well, I’m left in the air, wondering, which statements are agreed with and to what extent and which not, which I don’t enjoy. In other words I find
unclear, unhelpful or not promoting discussion. 
Of course you are free to PM me, or start new topics, as you see fit.
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Well that is interesting, thanks. Unfortunately it doesn’t come close and has warning markers for me:
Firstly, words from Sariputta a disciple.
Secondly, poetry is warned against by the Buddha.
Thirdly, sīla and samācāra are both mentioned, but neither clearly defined.
Fourthly, the not even the normal association for sīla is covered: killing, stealing, sexual misconduct. Lying seems to be covered and this focus on speech is very Brahminic. One modern scholar pointed out these focuses:
thought/mind: Buddha
word: Brahminism
deed: Jainism
best wishes
I hope not! It is against the monastic Vinaya to say such a thing, even if it’s true. I have never intended to make such a claim.
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@Brother_Joe this was the phrase which triggered hesitation for me, especially the word “first”. Perhaps this is correct, but it is not something i know to be true. Or definitely false, either, but it does seem problematic as a prescription, especially for newcomers of Buddhism.
Thank you for the invitation to PM; however, as you find some of my words “unclear, unhelpful or not promoting discussion”, i will not impose.
I hope you find clear, helpful and perhaps even enjoyable discussion, if you like. I have read only a little of your academic postings; they were interesting.
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@Gabriel_L thank you for the sutta reference; inspiring.
Perhaps for newcomers to buddhism, AN 5.174 offers a start https://suttacentral.net/an5.174/en/sujato
A person in the world doesn’t kill living creatures,
speak falsely,
steal,
commit adultery,
or indulge in drinking
alcohol and liquor.Giving up these five threats,
they’re said to be ethical.
When their body breaks up, that wise person
is reborn in a good place.”
What do you think?
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Yeah, and to me the Pali is quite unambiguous:
Giving up these five threats,
Pahāya pañca verāni,they’re said to be ethical.
sīlavā iti vuccati;
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Sorry, I didn’t mean to imply such a thing !
I had a couple of posts in mind. From last year’s essay:
And the post in which you made clear that the Vinaya places limits on public speech: Rebirth, rebirth, rebirth - #268 by Brahmali
But the straightforward advice that the path of renunciation and meditation is all that is required to steer one’s mind away from the stagnation of scepticism and doubt regarding rebirth, and attain personal knowledge, resonated strongly with me.
Hope this clarifies things and again, my apologies if my earlier post implied something else…
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Yes, that is very clear.
Markers indicating possible lateness to me, would be:
- poetry in the sutta
- the possible conflict with the ‘Layman’s Vinaya’ DN 31, where only the first four are called Kammakilesa, defiled deeds/vices of conduct.
oh, that was taken out of context.
I started the sentence with ‘I certainly believe…’ and have ‘but that’ after the comma, meaning, ‘I certainly believe that we first have to define what it is’. This is in line with Right View being at the start of the Path.
I was expressing my view, not dictating what people (beginners) must do.
best wishes
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In my experience a teacher is very important. I have seen people interpreting Buddhism in their view and not the right view due to not having a good (hopefully an enlightened kalyanamitta) teacher in their lives. This dhamma is beautiful as buddha said (beginning, middle and end) and the more you unravel it, if the (dhamma)
smell:rose: doesn’t get more and more pleasant you have to look for guidance. Also people can go nuts if the snake is grasped by the neck. (MN 22)
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If not * 
… i identified the specific phrase and especially word which gave me hesitation, as “the phrase” and “specific word”, after you characterized my less specific feedback as “unclear, unhelpful or not promoting discussion”. It does not seem imo that quote was “taken out of context”. But if you felt misrepresented, that is unfortunate, and i regret if my effort to reply was/is not seen in a peaceful light.
Title of thread is “What advice do you give to newcomers of Buddhism?”
I suggest we let this go, or take it to PMs.
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I havent been on here for over a year… I sure do miss the chats. I still consider myself a newbie even though I started practicing about ten years ago and later on in the Mahayana school linages. Ive always came back to study in the Pali Canon because its more distinct in explaining life.
I started off with meditation. I didnt have insight. I live in america; and, I agree, we are a me-ism country which isnt bad in itself, just a diferent cultural perspective. It has is pros and cons.
First, I had to get more aquinted with my culture and environment. Start with what you know first and branch out. I never knew American had a culture until almost recently. Challenging the identity without having a balance in perspective is hard. So, learning and assessing what you know best is a good start.
Second, meditation and reflection. It doesnt need to be perfect. Meditation schools here are mostly breathing rather than insight. Start simple and dont get bogged down that youre not “buddhist” enough. Before The Buddha found his enlightenment, he asked himself questions such as: should I do this. will they understand. how do I start. Type of thing. I used to be an ESL teacher; so, learning The Buddha’s Words seeing him as a teacher helps a lot.
Finding a way to relate to The Buddha is another way for newbies to come into practice.
What else?
I dont have this yet; but, having a community is a huge plus. A teacher if you’re lucky in these parts.
The four noble truths and the eightfold is also a good place to start. Branch out from each truth and read suttas related to that Truth.
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