What are bodily fabrications?

[Green]

@Sunyo

Different sequence perhaps, but the basic principle they describe is the same. Since SN12.39 is the clearest analogy to the standard sequence, I decided to mention only that one. But also in SN12.38 and 40, intentions (and plans and tendencies) are said to lead to consciousness, hence they substitute sankharas there too

I believe the vinnana (consciousness) here in the one life model must be seen as a kamma-vinnana. It is not a mere sensing. It is a kind of consciousness loaded with the energy load of intentions, plans, tendencies, reactivity etc. This energy load is the most important extra of the kamma vinnana’s.
It makes sensing into something different then merely sensing. Those vinnana moments cannot be seen as mere 6 sense-vinnana’s.

Also in the three life models here the consciousness is never a mere consciousness but also loaded with energy. What support rebirth is not vinnana but this energy load that vinnana can have and often has. For an arahant vinnana is without energy load.

It is not really important, i feel, if citta, vinnana etc have different meaning. What is important is that we understand eachother using words. Probably for the Buddha words like mind and vinnana also did not have the exact same meaning. Sometimes refering to a loaded moment of awareness, sometimes not etc.

[Sunyo]

@Joe.C

What are bodily volitions? Breathing in and breathing out, these things are indeed bodily, (they are) dependent on body, connected with body, existing dependent on body. Therefore breathing in and breathing out is said to be bodily volitions.

Good observation, thanks. I must admit I didn’t see that. But that is from Arv5, which is clearly the latest of the three, an abhi-dhamma style one, which you can see quite clearly just by reading it. The other two parallels, which seem to me earlier, don’t mention that.

And even Arv defines mental sankharas as:

Whatever passionate intentions, hateful intentions, deluded intentions (there are), these are mental factors, (they are) dependent on mind, connected with mind, existing dependent on mind. Therefore intention is said to be mental volitions.

[Joe.C]

@Sunyo

And even Arv defines mental sankharas as:

Well we are in kayasankhara. You know .

@Sunyo

which is clearly the latest of the three, an abhi-dhamma style one,

Now are you saying that sankrit is late. .

[Charlie]

@Soren

I do not see why bodily fabrications should not be taken to refer to a more general category. Thoughts?

I agree. I can’t imagine that at a time where hacking each other with swords and such was quite popular (contrary to popular belief some things are more or less permanent) that they weren’t quite aware of blood flow and other bodily functions. But I think the Buddha chose these three examples of fabrications for two closely related reasons:

1. Together they make up the most obvious phenomena that make up our worldly experience: breathing is always present, non-stop mental chatter, and continuously changing feelings - everyone can see these in their own mind.

2. Buddha uses these 3 types of fabrication to develop the path. He takes what is essentially an infinite youtube feed of fabrications and step by step develops them into a path toward a silent lucid mind that becomes free enough to ‘take it from there’ so to speak.

So basically, in my mind his choice of examples is directly related to how immediately accessible they are to everyone and how they are then used in developing the path.

[knigarian]

@Soren

I do not see why bodily fabrications should not be taken to refer to a more general category. Thoughts?

kayasȧkhāra indeed should be taken to refer to a more general category, namely while they are bodily, they are also sankharas.

But regarding a precise definition it is rather dangerous idea to redefine the meaning of kayasȧkhāra, since these sankharas ( kayasȧkhāra, vacı̄saṅkhāra, cittasȧkhara) appear in the context of dependent arising and such redefinition may result in distorted ideas about Dhamma.