What are people afraid of?

The Watercooler
1

I’ve seen & heard numerous comments both on here and listening to podcasts about people becoming afraid in meditative or altered states, but I’ve never understood what exactly it is that is scaring them. No one seems to explain it when referring to it.

Coming from a diff background, I do know people can get afraid at the point of letting go of the body on the verge of an obe, … and I also know people on the verge of shifting in to full ‘black out’ in trance mediumship oft get scared and pull back too preventing it from occurring. Actually, most people pull back… it’s rare to find people who will just roll with it and let it happen.

… but I’m not sure if those things are in any way relevant to what is scaring Buddhists in their practices.

Can anyone shed any light on this for me?

2

Ignore my formatting. I’m using my non dominate hand and have accidentally bumped something.

Too hard basket whilst left handed to sort it out :crazy_face::grin:

3

Fear can arise while meditating for many different reasons: a memory might come up, for example, causing you to become afraid of the consequences of your action or inaction. Some may experience frightening visions or even psychosis from the sensory deprivation / isolation of more intensive retreats.

But even in “correct” practice, some of the first realizations of impermanence, suffering, and not-self can cause fear to arise. SN 22.78 for example reports that even the devas are filled with terror when they realize their impermanence. This fear, however, should be temporary, with faith in the Triple Gem (SN 11.3) and progress along the path (AN 10.71).

3 Likes
4

Thank you. I’m having thoughts on a couple of tangents, but I’ll ponder and look in to a couple of things instead of commenting - for now anyway. I might come back with more in a couple of days :blush:

2 Likes
5

Suppose you look into the mirror and out of the blue, while you expact to see a well-known face, you see nothing. Would that not be frightening? The notion ‘i exist’, ‘i am’ depends on such confirmation, i have seen. For long we see a body and subconsciously this confirms ‘i exist’ and also vice versa. Maybe one is not aware of this proces of confirmation but still it is there.

The same with vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana. It is like a proces of mirroring. If suddenly vedana or other khandha’s would cease, the notion ‘I exist’ is challenged, because for long there is this inner scheme: "There are vedana’s, thoughts, perceptions (etc) so ‘I exist’ and vice versa.

Our sense of “I am” circles around the khandha’s as it were. It relies on them. It is build upand based upon them. If this notion of ‘I exist’, ‘I am’ is challenged that can be scary.

Our internal scheme is…there are tactile sensations, there are feelings, emotions, thoughts, perceptions, so, “i exist”. And also “I exist” because there are bodily sensations, emotions, thoughts etc. This relies on eachother.

Internally happens exactly the same compared to looking into a physical mirror, see the face you see all the time, and be confirmed “I exist”. Maybe some think this is theory, no. There is really a long standing identification with body and mind and a notion of" I am" that very much depends on a constant subconscious proces of comfirmation. The root of all fear, i think.

Identity gives us a feeling of safety, but at the same time that grasping becomes a cause for not letting go, not seeing the empty nature of mind and it does not really provide safety.

The sutta’s teach: vinnana is not me, mine, my self. Ofcourse this also becomes very apparant when we loose eye-vinnana, smell-vinnana, ear-vinnana, taste-vinnana, tactile vinnana. It is not that we cease to exist when we become blind, deaf, without smell and taste ability, or without any tactile sensation, right?

But what happens when we loose mind-vinnana, mental vinnana? What happens when there are no mental objects (dhamma) at all to discern? If at that moment we black out, suppose we do, then it prooves, i believe, we are mental vinnana, and buddha’s teachings proof to be wrong.

The sutta’s also use this reasoning that when, for example, a certain feeling disappears, we do not experience that we disappear, right? This reasoning establishes some kind of logical trust, faith, certainty that we cannot be that feeling. If i am thoughts, then i must disappear when thoughts cease, right, but such does not experientally proof to happen. If we would black out or loose all experienttial notion that we are present at the moment vinnana ceases, suppose, then it proofs Buddha’s teachings are wrong, because then it proofs ‘vinnana is me, and my self’.

Blacking out can also not be the nature of meditation, samadhi, wisdom, awakening, seeing, direct knowledge, i believe. And that is the aim of Dhamma. Most likely, i think, blacking out means that one has just become unconscious and is fully absorbed in bhavanga state. I would not associate this with cessation, because cessation is taught as a Truth that is seen, subtle. If one is unconscious there is no seeing nor direct knowledge.

There are also many buddhist meditation masters who do not speak of blacking out in meditation. In deep meditation one comes to see the true nature of mind, that what is very subtle, hard to see, the uninclined (Ud8.2) and does not black out. I also do not know sutta’s that describe blacking out as part of meditation or samadhi practice. I believe it is only an idea that cessation of khandha’s is blacking out. Blacking out is just becoming unconscious, i believe, like deep sleep, narcosis, not death but just unconscious.
Many meditation masters teach that meditation can bring us to a point we really see that we are not the khandha’s. Praising blacking out seems odd for a Dhamma that teaches that the end of defilements is for one who sees.

1 Like
6

Nice to see u back Green. I noticed the absence of your philosophical mind the past weeks

Thank you for adding another perspective (… and I welcome anyone else’s angles too)

None of those particular concepts had occurred to me , and probably because I personally don’t find any of those concepts frightening. Mind blowing type of freak you out - yes … but fear inducing - then no, … but hey we are all different I guess, so yeah that could def be valid for others.

Blacking out in trance mediumship is a different concept to blacking out in meditative cessation, … but I have wondered if the fears that stop people progressing in trance mediumship had any common ground with what is causing fear / stopping people trying to meditate in to cessation.

That said, whilst I know cessation states are legit, nothing so far has convinced me that cessation here necessarily = permanent cessation after the death of the physical body. I’m not discounting it either, it’s just on the ‘I don’t know’ shelf. I feel the same too about all this stream entry, once returner, arahant business as well. I’m not sold on it and am reserving judgement on wether one leads to the other. :slightly_smiling_face::woman_shrugging:t2:

7

People are afraid of losing what they believe to be their mind - i guess.

1 Like
8

That’s def a valid thing to fear. Not just as an immediate thing too …. For those who believe certain states will cause you to lose your mind as in cease to exist … that’s fairly heavy duty to sign up for.

9

People are mostly not afraid going asleep and becoming unconscious and loose all perceptions and feelings. But sometimes people become scared to fall asleep too.
I think the fear while dying will probably also be the fear of letting go vinnana.

Lack of fear has also a lot to do with unawareness, i think. A not acute awareness of the fact that pains, sicknessess, decay, death, misery are real and not only what happens to others. I think in general fearlessness is not some result of wisdom or bravery. More unawareness, naievity.

For many people it is all so self-evident to be able to smell, see, drive a car, walk, shop, think, be healthy etc. We must first awaken from this self-evident world, i feel. Nothing of all this is self-evident. And when that becomes more real, one becomes also very aware of what one can loose.

10

I think that could go the other way for some too. They could be fearless because they ARE acutely aware of the ongoing suffering for eternity being the alternative.

11

Yes, as the arahants fearlessness. Is that what you mean?

12

I think fear of death is often inferred from sequence of events. More often than not, death is preceded by sharp pains and followed by decay just as you mentioned. However, the same sequence makes death a refuge of some sort: dead people do not respond to stimuli so they appear to be free of pain, and they do not witness the decay of body - hence the bravery of those who sacrifice their lives to protect others.

Other teachings - that focus mainly on morality, might shed interesting lights on fear. In their creation stories, humans are made of clay whereas demons are made of fire. The composition of humans makes them feel at ease in the world, and their moral duty is to resist the temptations by demons in order to return to heaven. As such, feeling at home in the world is contingent on the ability to make autonomous and rationale decisions by resisting temptations - which relies on the mind. Under this strange state of affairs, for people who feel at home in the world, institutions play a major role in designating sanity. Take schizophrenia as an example: that which required a clergyman to exorcise demons is replaced by psychiatrists, after the evolution of science and taking the ways of earth to be higher than the ways of heaven - as per that paradigm.

1 Like
13

I wasn’t thinking of an Arahant specifically… as mentioned above I’m not sure I even buy in to a ‘ranking’ system.

I have presumed tho that numerous people have seen the eternal suffering acutely without having to be an Arahant. In which case continued existence could be perceived as the thing to fear rather than ceasing existence instead.

I presume too that lots of people go thru the whole gamut of meditation experiences without having the fear that arises for some ever arising for them.

Are you of the opinion that only an Arahant could be without fear?

1 Like
14

I do not know any person who has. Where i live (the Netherlands) this idea of endless suffering and rebirth is completely absent. I still have not much feeling for it to be honest. It is such a strange idea for me and i think many many others who have not been raised with such ideas. I am still often very suprised that for people this idea of endless samsara is so normal. In our culture we are not any moment exposed to such ideas.
We are also raised with the idea that life is great and beautiful, holy. To strive for some kind of extinguishment would be really weird. Unholy.

Ofcourse there is suffering, but in my culture suffering is not that imporant, just a normal part of life we all have to deal with it, treat it or accept it.

But i do not think there is 1 person in my country that suffers and thinks…oh this endless suffering in all these rebirth…what a misery. It is alien to us.

What for clues do you have that:

?

I believe there are often different causes and conditions for things. Fearlessness can also be a kind of indifference, not having any sense of this precious life, not even care to become sick, decay, die. That is not normal, i believe. That is more like a lack of sensitivity.

Or one is without fear because one has never yet met with great troubles, pains, sufferings etc. This can be some youthful bravery/gallantery.

I am not inclined to think that people are without fear, anger, instability because they are so wise, compassionate and nobel. My experience is: the opposite is probably true.

15

I’ve not long woken up, got a big busy day ahead, but I’ll endeavour to get back to u tonight if time allows me - otherwise I will tomorrow :blush:

Edit: I’m going to have to postpone again. I literally have not had a second to myself for 2 days and now my kids want to go to a fair/ show thing - animals, fun park rides, fireworks and ridiculously overpriced bad food - so that’s the rest of today gone too.

2 Likes
16

Have a nice time.

The last time I was at a fairground, there was a man doing ‘Guess your weight’ so i stood in the queue and when it got to my turn

The man said “That was about 15 minutes”…

1 Like
17

When I get close to losing my sense of self.

2 Likes
18

This is not a wide spread idea in Australia either. We do tho have a lot of migration from the Asiatic regions and correspondingly each census report shows an increase in Karmic religions - so it’s growing, as are the number of Buddhist temples and monasteries.

Im not sure this will be a worthwhile analogy/perspective, and I don’t know if you have watched someone suffering with a terminal illness, but for many people there comes a point where you flip from not wanting to lose someone to genuinely wanting them to die to stop their ( and maybe even our) suffering. I know the last thing I said to my dad was ( in other words) to let go and get out of his body - and he didn’t breathe again. I could never have imagined 2 weeks prior that I would be telling him to die - but I did. Seeing Suffering provoked it.

If u can relate to that, it’s maybe not so hard to imagine that for someone in the type of mind state as to acutely see the suffering in the bigger picture … then seeing living and dying, living and dying, over & over & over for eternity could also likewise ( to the preceding paragraph) flip them from wanting to hang on to existence to wanting that to stop too. It’s just never ending death and eternity is just such a long time it could look horrifying.

I don’t think ( I might be wrong tho) that people in Buddhist countries are getting around pre-occupied with suffering on the daily anymore than people in your or my countries, or even those from Abrahamic religions who also have ‘eternal suffering’ in their beliefs … just with no way out if you end up in hell in their version.

I think it’s only an acute knowing in certain moments and I think, like a hangover, wears off over time and returns to just an intellectual idea again. Unless someone was getting in that state regularly enough of course that the perception became continuous.

I can’t say this is how is looks for Buddhists, but it’s how I can understand why people would strive for extinguishment.

19

Just wondering Ceisiwr, is it in the moment that you feel yourself going that you perhaps stick a claw out to hang on - so to speak, …. Or is it losing sense of self after the fact that is of more concern?

20

Hi,

Sorry to hear your dad suffered and had a terminal illness. I have also wittnessed this. Its heartbreaking.

I see what you say. In what way do you believe that striving to become non-existent, or seeing the escape of suffering in becoming non-existent, is different from vibhava tanha?

(By the way, this is not meant to make any judgement about decisions people make. But, it is something different, for me at least, when people believe that the goal of Dhamma is to cease without anything remaining)

1 Like