What comes first?. Is it contact or feeling?

I have trouble understanding whether the contact comes first or feeling comes first.

In MN.18 it says

““Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling.””

In MN.43 it says

“”‘It cognizes, it cognizes’: Thus, friend, it is said to be ‘consciousness.’ And what does it cognize? It cognizes ‘pleasant.’ It cognizes ‘painful.’ It cognizes ‘neither painful nor pleasant.’ ‘It cognizes, it cognizes’: Thus it is said to be ‘consciousness.’""

According to MN.43, consciousness directly leads to feeling. Does it imply that contact has already taken place in order to accord with MN.18?.

Ven K. Nanananda, in his Law of Dependent Arising-Volume 1, Page 18, says as follows.

“So then the very first function of consciousness is the awareness of feeling. That is where consciousness awakens. It is true that even the rubber tree exudes latex when an incision is made on it. But surely we don’t say that the tree is weeping. Therefore the basic function of consciousness is feeling. It is through feeling that the notion of self awakens.”

Appreciate all your clarifications please.

With Metta

SN 36.10:

“Bhikkhus, these three feelings are born of contact, rooted in contact, with contact as their source and condition. What three? Pleasant feeling, painful feeling, neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling.

AN 6.63:

“And what is the cause of feeling? Contact is the cause of feeling.

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“Feeling, perception, & consciousness are conjoined, friend, not disjoined. It is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them. For what one feels, that one perceives. What one perceives, that one cognizes. Therefore these qualities are conjoined, not disjoined, and it is not possible, having separated them one from another, to delineate the difference among them.”

http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.043.than.html

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Any feeling that exists is based on contact. On contact between 3 elements: nama, rupa and consciousness. For rexample the parking sensor of a car is one element. What the sensor perceives is the second element. This triggers further reactions in the car (witch is made just out of form element) and because there is no consciousness, there is no contact and therefore no feeling arise for the car. In the case of a human, there is the element of the eye. The second element is eye-sights. The third element is eye-consciousness. The meeting of these 3 = contact. Out of this contact feeling is born. If there would be no contact between these 3 elements there would be no feeling, just like there is no feeling for the car because there is no consciousness and therefore, no contact between consciousness and name&form.

And this is why living beings have feeling and cars do not - because of lack of contact.

MN 18 madhupidika Sutta

Friends, on account of eye and forms arise eye consciousness. The coincident meeting of the three is contact. On account of contact feelings arise; what is felt is perceived; of what is perceived there is thinking; in thoughts there is diffusedness; on account of that, diffused perceptive components of forms of the past, future, and present cognizable by the eye consciousness arise and behave in that man.
On account of the ear and sounds arise ear consciousness. The coincident meeting of the three is contact, on account of contact feelings, what is felt is perceived, of what is perceived there is thinking, in thoughts there is diffusedness, on acount of that, diffused perceptive components of sounds of the past, future and present cognizable by ear consciousness arise and behave in that man.
On account of the nose and smells arise nose consciousness. The coincident meeting of the three is contact, on account of contact feelings, what is felt is perceived , of what is perceived there is thinking, in thoughts there is diffusedness, on account of that, diffused perceptive components of smells of the past, future and present cognizable by nose consciousness arise and behave in that man.
On account of tongue and tastes arise tongue consciousness. The coincident meeting ot the three is contact, on account of contact feelings, what is felt is perceived, of what is perceived there is thinking, in thoughts there is diffusedness on account of that diffused pereceptive components of tastes of the past, future and present cognizable by tongue consciousness arise and behave in that man.

“what is felt is perceived, of what is perceived there is thinking, in thoughts there is diffusedness,on account of the diffusedness, perceptive components of thoughts of the past, future and present cognizable by mind consciousness arise and behave in that man.
Friends, when the eye is present, forms are present, eye consciousness is present, and the notion of a contact is present is possible. When the notion of contact is present, a notion of feelings is present and is possible, when there is a notion of feeling a notion of perception is possible, when there is a notion of perception a notion of thinking is possible, and when there is a notion of thinking a notion of diffused perceptive components arising and behaving is possible.
“When the ear is pressent, sounds are present, and ear consciousness is present…When the nose is present, smells are present, and nose consciousness is present… When the tongue is present, tastes are present, and tongue consciousness is presesnt… When the body is present, touches are present and body consciousness is present… When the mind is present, thoughts are present, mind conscioussness is present, the notion of contact is present is possible. When the notion of contact is present, a notion of feelings is present is possible, when there is a notion of feeling a notion of perception is possible, when there is a notion of perception, a notion of thinking is possible, and when there is a notion of thinking a notion of diffused perceptive components arising and behaving is possible.
Friends, when the eye is not present, forms are not present, eye consciousness is not present, the notion of a contact is not is possible. When the notion of contact is not present, a notion of feelings is not possible, when there is not a notion of feeling a notion of perception is not possible, when there is not a notion of perception a notion of thinking is not possible, when there is not a notion of thinking a notion of diffused perceptive components arising and behaving is not possible.
“When the ear is not pressent, sounds are not present, and ear consciousness is not present… When the nose is not present, smells are not present, and nose consciousness is not present… When the is tongue is not present, tastes are not present, and tongue consciousness is not presesnt… When the body is not present, touches are not present and body consciousness is not present… When the mind is not present, thoughts are not present, mind conscioussness is not present, the notion of contact is not possible. When the notion of contact is not present, a notion of feelings is not possible, when there is not a notion of feeling a notion of perception is not possible, when there is not a notion of perception, a notion of thinking is not possible, when there is not a notion of thinking a notion of diffused perceptive components arising and behaving is not possible. Here’s a sermon delivered by ven Katukurende nanananda. Unfortunately , version is available only in sinhala. You can find more dhamma sermons over archive org.


Sermon on contact, https://archive.org/download/Pahankanuwa/Phk198_wedana-ps-16.mp3
On vedanā
https://archive.org/download/Pahankanuwa/Phk181_madu-pindika-sutta.mp3
Madupindika sutta

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Thank you for the sutta. I’ve read the intro since I had not read it before and everything was relatively good until I see: “However, this dimension is not a total annihilation of experience. It’s a type of experience that DN 11 calls consciousness without feature, luminous all around, where water, earth, fire, & wind have no footing, where long/short, coarse/fine, fair/foul, name/form are all brought to an end.”

I taught this was written by B.Sujato since I clicked on it from suttacentral link and was about to furiously start a topic. Then I saw it was actually good old eternalist Thanissaro and accesstoinsight. It would be good if B.Sujato could tanslate that sutta himself and create an intro without that eternal consciousness in nibbana part based on sutta twisting 2 poetic verses from DN, in obvious contradiction with everything else written in the sutta pitaka.

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A couple important contexts for the relationship between contact and feeling:

these six bases for contact—if untamed, unguarded, unprotected, unrestrained—are bringers of suffering

these six bases for contact—if well tamed, well guarded, well protected, well restrained—are bringers of happiness

It was said: ‘With contact as condition there is feeling.’

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