Liz, Sutta Central is one of the coolest, most interesting, most useful, best resources online for anyone interested in deep practice. And the tone in it is really good (unlike some of the contentious letters in Tricycle etc.!).
Metta,
Rick
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Don’t assume it’s real.
How to like so as not to agree with the position, but express sympathy for the author
That’s funny 
Dear Bhante Sunyo 
First of all thank you for your answer, it makes lots of sense. 
Since you asked for next quesion, I finally got one. 
(Następne pytanie proszę means in Polish “next quesion please”).
I would like to ask you why sanna-vedana-nirodha (known for example from MN59), is called exactly sanna-vedana-nirodha? Why no sanna-vedana-sankhara-vinnana nirodha, or kandha-nirodha? Why omitting the last two kandhas of sankhara and vinnana? Could that mean that sankhara and vinnana is still present in this state and that it is in fact a conditioned state (sankhata dhamma)?
I ask because it is often said (I don’t know if correctly), that sanna-vedana-nirodha is same as what happens to Arahant after death (Parinibbana). If Parinibbana is cessation of all kandhas, then why this meditative attainment is not called kandha-nirodha or something?
Of course rupa is already not present, because it goes after arupa-samapattis.
Also, is sanna-vedana-nirodha same as nirodha samapatti?
One more question I have is about etymology of the word “nirodha”. I found here on first source on google is that:
One way traces the etymology to “ni” (without) + “rodha” (prison, confine, obstacle, wall, impediment) , thus rendering the meaning as “without impediment,” “free of confinement.” This is explained as “free of impediments, that is, the confinement of Samsara.”
And in buddhist texts it is translated as “cessation”. There is huge difference between “without impediment” and “cessation”. So I wonder if translating nirodha as cessation is something 100% sure, or is it just a translator choice?
What inspired me to think about it in the first place was some similarities between polish and pali. For example “veda” in pali - religious feeling/knowledge is “wiedza” in polish. “Sanpapalapa” in pali (meaningless speech) is “paplanina” in polish. “Buddha” in pali (Awakened One) is “Przebudzony” in polish. To “wake up” in polish (like in the morning) is “budzić”. There are more examples of similarities. And nirodha in polish would be similar to nie-rodzić - nie = negation, rodzić = birth. So nirodha sounds like “no-birth” in polish. I know this is probably not correct, but I just wanted to share what came through my mind. Then I started to wonder what nirodha really means.
If you have time to respond, then thank you for your precious time Venerable.
Hi Piotrj, hope you are well.
Thanks for thinking I can answer this question. 
I think there are others here who can do as good a job, if not better. But the following would be my answer.
First of all, it’s a detail, but it’s not saññāvedānanirodha but saññāvedayitanirodha. Vedayita means ‘felt/experienced’, as the PTS dictionary says, not ‘feeling/experience’ in the verbal sense of the word. This pragmatically doesn’t make too much of a difference, though.
Saññā is sometimes used as an effective synonym for viññana. The PTS dict lists ‘consciousness’ as an option, and the Digital Pali Dictionary glosses “consciousness, awareness”. This is the sense that the word has here, in my view. It’s not a perception in the sense of a cognitive interpretation, but in the sense of cognitoin as awareness. This is also an English use of the word ‘perception’: “the ability to see, hear, or become aware of something through the senses”.
So I prefer to translate saññāvedayitanirodha as ‘the cessation of awareness and what is experienced’. This means the cessation of awareness alongside its object.
Sometimes it’s argued that viññana isn’t included in saññāvedayitanirodha, so it isn’t the (temporary) cessation of consciousness. But viññana is intrinsically linked to saññā and vedāna (MN43), so it is implied to also cease.
You ask why it’s not called differently. But why are you called Piotr and not Slavek? There’s no particular reason for it. Sometimes you just give a thing a label and work with that. It’s clear that sanna-vedana-sankhara-vinnana nirodha is just too clumsy. Sometimes the suttas are so structural, we expect the every word to be pinpoint precise in an Abhidhamma-like fashion. But that’s not really how the suttas work.
Also, I can’t illustrate it in detail here, but viññana doesn’t just mean awareness. It had other meanings as well, and one is the “life force”, for lack of better words, that travels from life to life. If you would say that viññana ceases, to the ordinary person it would have sounded like the end of rebirth. This is what the cessation of viññana means in context of Dependent Origination, for example. That may explain why it’s not included in the name of a temporary state of cessation. The same with khandha-nirodha: that would have made it sound like parinibbana.
Saññāvedayitanirodha isn’t the same as parinibbana, because the former is temporary and the latter is not. The former isn’t limited to arahants either, but the latter is.
However, the subjective “experience” (of non-experience), if we could call it that, of both is the same. Both are a cessation of awareness. A good sutta pointing at this is MN111, where Sariputta concludes there is no escape beyond saññāvedayitanirodha. This doesn’t mean there is no parinibbana, no permanent cessation; in this context it means there is no further cessation of mind beyond that, no deeper peace. Because at this point all awareness ceases, which is the highest peace.
About nirodha, sometimes it’s helpful to compare words in different languages, but this isn’t a good way to arrive at a word’s meaning, because even if the words stem from the same root, the meaning in different places often diverge. Etymology in general is a bad way to arrive at the meaning of a word. Context is much better. And from context I can only conclude that ‘cessation’ is the best translation of nirodha. It seems like most (all?) translators came to the same conclusion.
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Dear Bhante Sunyo ,
Thank you so much for the thorough reply! It makes a lot of sense, thank you!
Btw. nice catch on sanna-vedayita-nirodha. I wasn’t aware that there is a different word than vedana.
The more I contemplate it, the more my view become same as yours Bhante (and others associated with Bodhinyana monastery). Thank you!
I think cessation is “ineffable” for our minds, because awareness cannot imagine “something” (or rather nothing) that has not awareness.
Do you think we can think of Parinibbana in a simile like going into a peaceful deep sleep (unconsciouss state) and never waking up?
With metta and gratitude
Problem is nothing to be felt anymore after rupa is stilled/released. In Arupa, there is no vedana part to be felt (no feeling involve).
Sannavedayitanirodha mean stopping of sanna and vedana. Vedana part is already being stilled during the 4th rupa jhana. The arupa jhana, no more vedana, only Sanna part.
This is why It always refer to citta visuddhi in purificiation of mind. Because Citta sankhara is Vedana and Sanna. So rupa jhana is to purify/still the vedana part, then arupa is to purify/still sanna part. Hence one can reach sannavedayitanirodha. Not easy task btw.
We could to some extent, but I wouldn’t burden it with such concepts. Through insight it will be emotionally perceived much differently, much more positively than “just blank nothingness”, as I’ve seen it described, and also much more positively than sleep. This is why the Buddha gives all these beautiful positive metaphors for nibbana, calling it an island, the highest happiness, etc. He has a different perception of it than one can achieve through the intellect. This is why the noble ones are said to have a different perception of happiness.
Through insight the cessation of consciousness will also be set against the backdrop of the length of samsara, which makes a big difference.
Lastly, the insight into absence of a self also changes the whole ballgame. It’s not like “I will become unconsicous” (as in “we go to sleep”), but just something impersonal that has no relation to “you”.
Best thing practice-wise, in my opinion, is to imagine the complete cessation of consciousness after many lifetimes, and see how your mind reacts to that. Whether there is craving, fear, attachment, etc. This is useful regardless of what parinibbana is, because if it would be a type of lasting consciousness that can’t cease, you’re still challenging attachments to that as well. But I wouldn’t contemplate like this when you’re sad or depressed; only when your mind is uplifted, especially by meditation. Also, don’t think of it as “I will stop existing” or “my consciousness will cease”. Try to see it as an impersonal process. That’s would be my advice.
I think that’s the Buddha’s general advice as well. MN22 is helpful in this regard:
“What doesn’t exist internally” refers to the “me, mine, my self”.
To return to the topic this discussion started off with, I think suttas such as this make much more sense if there really is no thing that’s “permanent, everlasting, eternal, imperishable, and will last forever and ever”.
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The quality of “knowing” Nibbana is definitely tricky to wrap one’s head about. However, the Buddha clearly states that it can be “known”. And, when referring to Nibbana, he uses precise terminology. For example:
In SuttaCentral
Then the Gracious One, having understood the significance of it, on that occasion uttered this exalted utterance: “There is, monks, an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned. If, monks there were not that unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, you could not know an escape here from the born, become, made, and conditioned. But because there is an unborn, unbecome, unmade, unconditioned, therefore you do know an escape from the born, become, made, and conditioned.”
In addition we have this sutta.
SN 12.23
Rebirth is a vital condition for suffering. Suffering is a vital condition for faith. Faith is a vital condition for joy. Joy is a vital condition for rapture. Rapture is a vital condition for tranquility. Tranquility is a vital condition for bliss. Bliss is a vital condition for immersion. Immersion is a vital condition for truly knowing and seeing. Truly knowing and seeing is a vital condition for disillusionment. Disillusionment is a vital condition for dispassion. Dispassion is a vital condition for freedom. Freedom is a vital condition for the knowledge of ending.
So, the take away is that, when we are “extinguished”, then we will know.
When you take up a long journey by foot it’s obviously good to know the destination. However one can’t think solely of the destination to get there. In fact, if you don’t concentrate very hard on just putting one foot in front of the other, the journey becomes very difficult.
So, consider that we have: faith; joy; rapture; tranquility; bliss; and samadhi.
This is more than enough to start the journey!
To the “cessationist” camp I’d point out that it would be very strange indeed if every attainment up to and including Nibbana itself was “knowable” with the exception of saññā-vedayita-nirodha
And, although I can’t recall the name of the sutta, it is expressed that those who attain saññā-vedayita-nirodha in this life without reaching enlightenment are reborn among a host of mind made gods.
So, if we maintain that the attainments reveal the rebirth destinations, it seems that saññā-vedayita-nirodha is knowable as well (to the extent that rebirth is possible in an affiliated state of mind made being on the basis of having developed that attainment)
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The body is made of matter. Matter is never annihilated. The physical law of the conservation of matter and energy has never been violated by any known observation. It is one of our most fundamental physical laws and it would be a shocking and revolutionary discovery to see this overturned. Matter and energy can transform and take on different shapes, but it is never annihilated. Unless you hold a dualist view this would apply to mind as well.
Yes it is. Only energy is conserved.
For example, when matter and anti-matter come into contact they annihilate each other and the interaction releases pure energy.
Just offering this point for clarification, and not entering into the discussion here.
Matter and energy are two facets of the same thing and are related through the very famous E=MC^2 as the Wikipedia article I link stated and that you can read more about here. Before Einstein understood this famous equation the previous understanding was still that mass is conserved. Oh, and btw energy can be converted into mass as well. That is exactly how your matter/antimatter pairs are created in particle accelerators actually.
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Hi,
Yes, I’m aware.
But in your post you wrote:
While it’s fundamentally a form of energy, that form can be, and is, annihilated.
But, this is a Buddhist forum so I’m not too keen on getting into the weeds with physics here. Though it is quite interesting.
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Yeah, we are probably not really disagreeing and I could have stated more explicitly matter/energy. My only point is that matter/energy is conserved. Matter/energy are not annihilated. That this is one of the most fundamental of our physical laws. And that matter/energy are the stuff of the rupa aggregate. So it is hard to understand how in any real sense the rupa aggregate could be said to utterly cease with paranibbana.
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I’d say exactly because matter/form can be annihilated. After all, there are forms of energy which are massless, like photons.
So the body – rūpa in the suttas is more than just solid forms, as we moderns usually understand it; it includes light and measurements known by the mind – can end and vanish.
Since the cosmos is conditioned, the full cessation of parinibbāna, being unconditioned, is free of all these constraints.
But yes, I think we’re on the same page.
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A very recent video of Bhikkhu Bodhi addressing the same subject
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Bhante Aggacitta, Bhante Ariyadhammika, etc many other EBT teachers are of the position of nothing after parinibbāna, and jhāna doesn’t require 5 physical senses shut down.
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Namo Buddhaya!
Is the meaning of ‘nothing after parinibbana’ like the meaning of an atheist’s saying ‘nothing after death’?
What then is blissful samādhi where the senses are gone?
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Sorry, Bhante, if you’re referring to any sutta quote, I am not familiar with it.
They basically interpreted from the sutta that only at formless attainments that perception of form is overcomed.
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