What is acceptable as a tool for meditation? Is meditative experience with external influences like tea, coffee, or medicine authentic?

Discussion
1

Hello, I am a student working on a project involved with understanding Buddhist ethics regarding medicine, influences and meditation, including influences like tea and alcohol as a way to understand what is ‘allowed’ in terms of tools for practice.

my questions (in the title) is; Is meditative experience with external influences like tea, coffee, or medicine authentic?

I am interested in skillful means. although the culminative goal of practice may form as an inner realization, often, the forces adapted in teaching are external. This is where I am most interested; I aim to analyze, according to Buddhist ethics, what is considered skillful in the use of external supports in meditative practice.

I have interviewed many monastics and many Buddhist lay people in Vietnam and people who practice a style of everyday [plumb village style] mindfulness. I am just generally interested though in the ethics behind ‘supports’ and ‘tools’ for practice of meditation.

i have so far reviewed tea and intoxicants and have come to the following list of judgements for when something is possibly deemed acceptable;

medicine, supports etc. is acceptable when used with 1) good ethical intention (karma), 2) in support for avoiding unsupportive mental states (right mindfulness), 3) only used when needed (the middle way), and lastly 4) is given up when no longer needed (renunciation) ← at the highest level of practice…

if anyone has any interesting thoughts on this topic I would love to hear from you, I dont require any more formal interviews, although if you wish I can cite you for this project (although I wont publish and don’t plan to publish this project)

I am sure I am making some ignorant oversimplifications or looking past some obvious logic so generally I would love just to witness an interesting discourse.

thank you

3 Likes
2

Hi Silas,

Welcome to the D&D forum! We hope you enjoy the various resources, FAQs, and previous threads. We encourage you to use the search function for topics and keywords you are interested in.

We also ask you to please take a moment now to familiarize yourself with the forum guidelines: Forum Guidelines. May some of these resources be of assistance along the path.

If you have any questions or need further clarification regarding anything, feel free to contact the moderators by including @moderators in your post or a PM.

Regards,
trusolo (on behalf of the moderators)

1 Like
3

We had this discussion before, might be useful for you:

You can search for more relevant threads by clicking the magnifying glass :magnifying_glass_tilted_left: at the top of the page :blush:

4 Likes
4

Thank you! This is very helpful!

1 Like
5

No, I think you should get meditation experience without any external influence, including music, stimulants, psychedelic, coffee, etc. At least for formal (sitting) meditation.

Unless of course if somehow your life depends on it for example. Or you are taking long term medication for specific illness. But when someone don’t need coffee, tea, or music, why use it? Just try to meditate in the most natural way possible.

Allow yourself a good meditation mat and comfortable temperature room. Comfortable clothes, and a timer. Turn off your gadget.

One thing about tea and coffee is that they contain caffeine. It make heart beat faster. When you go into meditation, the body is relaxed, quiet, and activity stop, so the heart naturally beat slower.

Now the signal from the brain to slow heart beat will conflict with caffeine reaction to speed it up. This will create problem. That’s the logic, I am sure you can find more relevant science studies.

For everyday mindfulness, when people are active doing something, it is different. But in that situation the meditative experience can’t be deep.

2 Likes
7

The monastic sangha runs on tea and coffee.
Many excellent meditators recommend using it in moderation.

6 Likes
8

Really? May I ask who? Cause all the “excellent meditators” (Bhante Yuttadhammo, Ajahn Suchart…) I’ve asked about it have been against caffeine for meditators…

2 Likes
9

I will start with Ajahn Brahm’s addiction to tea and work from there.

6 Likes
10

I heard Ayya Sudāso from empty cloud talk about their start to meditation where they wanted to practice with no caffeine. The instructor said something like lets be practical. Ayya drank ulon tea to support the practice in early sits.

Monastics at a local Theravada monastary said something strikingly similar to what Venerable Passana said “this is a highly caffeinated place”. I did not see a single concreting drinks break without red bull cans or syrup.

English Buddhist monk, Bhante Dan talks about a sugary drinks and tea and distinguishes stimulant use and mind altering drugs. He talks about trusting the pilot who had a couple of cigarettes and a coffee as opposed to trusting the pilot after a joint. The latter is against the precepts the former not.

2 Likes
11

Yeah, if you click the link above you’ll see that Bhante Yuttadhammo agrees that caffeine isn’t against the precepts and he also says that drinking tea and coffee is very common at Buddhist monasteries. Neither of those points is under any doubt.

He’s against caffeine for serious meditators because stimulants are a contributing factor to psychosis: an unfortunately common problem for people undertaking intensive practice. And the benefit (energy) is not really needed as the temporary boost comes at the cost of less energy later… and/or a continued dependency on the drug. So, it’s better to advise serious meditators to just avoid it. The Buddha gave Maha Moggallāna seven antidotes to drowsiness none of which involve caffeine.

Of course, people who are meditating only a short time or who are doing more Bodhisattva work like Venerable Suddhāso (I assume you meant? not “Sudāso”) may find the temporary boost of energy helpful but that’s different from the case of extended meditation practice which is where my mind went when Ven @Pasanna said “excellent meditators”

2 Likes
12

Yes.

Well something learnt today. I could not see that that was a link. caffeine leads to madness once again!

Sorry for any confusion caused. Probably mostly my own confusion.

3 Likes
13

Dear Venerable Pasanna,

I don’t know. He was born in England. Tea is a tradition there. Perhaps even sacred :grin:

And I heard that he even gave up tea once and still had a wonderful time.

I am a complete beginner when it comes to meditation. But when it comes to caffeine, I can say that I don’t tolerate it well due to my genetics (histaminosis…), but I was completely addicted to it. Of course, I vehemently denied this. I never liked coffee, but I celebrated green tea. The withdrawal wasn’t exactly pleasant either. But in the end, it helped me. But that’s just my experience, and it can and will be different for everyone.

Much metta :smiling_face_with_three_hearts:

3 Likes
14

I don’t know what’s an “authentic” meditation, or samadhi. :slight_smile:

There are certain interesting items consumed in the Vinaya. One of them seems to be something like a tobacco / weed stick, which seems to be the basis of monastics smoking cigarettes.

Music is famously banned, however chanting is part of the job description for monastics. For some, there might not be much of a difference.

If you want to get technical, I think one could make arguments based on suttas in either way. It is said that those who know Vinaya can get away with killing a chicken!

For me, part of the practice is observing what the mind is capable of with the least amount of outside influence. That includes things like coffee, music and such.

Which, I indulge in both in abundance. :slight_smile: Which is why, sometimes some days I take a full day off not playing music, not drinking coffee (generally fasting for over 24h).

When I’m meditating under the influence of coffee, I’m observing a mind influenced by coffee. If you have a regular practice, they are very different flow states, and the differences are usually exaggerated in the summer for me, where I’ll have a restless, arythmic heart with just one coffee.

I have actually checked it, and it is within “normal” medical ranges. However, to me it still feels annoying and unnecessary. :slight_smile:

So it all depends on why you meditate at the first place. A person might just be interested in a pleasant abiding, in which case some soothing music, some warm tea could be great things.

But to someone who seeks to explore what the mind is capable of - you wanna tackle that with the least amount of influence, so you understand just what can happen with mind and mind alone. :slight_smile:

5 Likes
15

Since green tea has about half the caffeine of black tea, perhaps that’s the middle way for tea drinkers. Likewise, decaffeinated coffee has about 3% caffeine. I drink both green tea and decaf fairly sparingly because I don’t like the buzz of caffeine.

I also only listen to music when others are playing it and I’ve noticed that the “hook” of a song can become an ear worm that emerges with a freewheeling mind or restlessness and worry. Ajahn Brahmali and Ajahn Brahm frequently teach about letting go in meditation, not to “do” anything, to allow the mind to settle down into tranquility. So the last thing I want is a jittery, wild mind with music playing!

4 Likes
16

Green tea caffeine levels vary. Some can be quite high caffeine. Apparently matcha is quite high caffeine but has a slow, even release

4 Likes
17

Indeed! Also, black tea has Theine in it, which helps with the “soothing” effect of tea, which is absent in Green Tea. For example, Green Tea generally makes me more jittery compared to Black Tea. :slight_smile:

So yeah, these things vary in effect quite a lot! :smiley:

2 Likes
18

Hello @Adutiya and @Pasanna !

Just thought I would pop in to add my understanding on tea and caffeine as a tea hobbyist, hoping it would be useful information in these kinds of discussions.

Generally speaking the levels of caffeine each individual tea will end up having has so many different variables, for example: the tea plant, the enviroment the tea plant was grown in, the varietal, the processing of the tea leaves.. etc. Because there is so many variables related to the amount of caffeine the drinker will end up gaining, it is generally quite unproductive, if not misleading to say X category has less caffeine than Y category.

The only thing I’ve consistently heard of that hobbyists tend to say about tea that has less caffeine in general are for example tea that is made from tea stems. For example japanese green tea hojicha. I’ve also heard from other hobbyists that a heavy roasting process reduces caffeine in tea.

If someone asks “what tea should i drink that has less caffeine”, the usual answer is either use much less leaf, or just drink some herbal tea :slightly_smiling_face:

3 Likes
19

I agree with you, that the effect varies a lot!

And sorry, the nerd in me “needs” to add some information.

All teas that derive from camellia sinensis contain caffeine, which is identical to theine. The amount of caffeine in a cup of tea varies mainly due to the type and the brewing time, not necessarily if it was fermented (black) or not (green). The longer a tea steeps, the more tannins are dissolved relative to the caffeine. So a longer steeped tea contains more caffeine, but at the same time more tannins. The caffeine and the tannins build a complex witch takes longer to be absorbed. This may cause the effect that theses teas seem to be less stimulating.

1 Like
20

@silas With regards to questions like this I personally always go back to the Buddhas first principles.
Do what helps to progress on the Path, don’t do what hinders progress, from the perspective of Dependent Arising (or putting the right causes in place for further beneficial conditioning to occur).

First principles always take you back to the purpose of choices and actions.. While lists may be useful, they are by nature arbitrary and based on averages.

Because successful navigation of the Path is 1) gradual and evolving as one makes progress and 2) based on specific internal and external conditions that are always changing, general lists are of limited value when making specific personal practice choices. The things that help, lead to stagnation or hinder the Path will vary over time and from individual to individual. It is not static.

It is important that The Path is based on skilful knowledge regarding how to shape ones own conditioning.. knowing what causes lead to beneficial and skilful progress, to a state further along the Path.

Certainly your list has good points, but context and nuance can help guide individual choices.

For those with very strong views, experience shows that those views are impermanent, they are likely to change as new perceptions and conditions arise. They are simply conditionally arisen, and a cause for suffering if grasped. Making it easier to hold them lightly, is the realisation that they are “not me, not mine and not myself”. Simply conditionally arisen… Not some kind of objective Truth.. Everything is dependently Arisen.

This includes the Noble 8 fold Path, and is also the mechanism used by the Path to lead practitioners step by step to Awakening. Doing work on the steps before Samadhi (or in conjunction with beginning meditation), should result in a lot of progress with regards to diminishing hindrances, which makes it less likely that one will be needlessly indulging in anything, and therefore that there is already a lot of skill and experience about what helps and what hinders. As one’s skills improve, required supporting conditions will also change. What is needed and useful at the beginning may not be needed later. It is similar to training for a sport. You can’t run a marathon on your first day.. instead there needs to be a training program that slowly builds up the skills, strengths and abilities. Someone contemplating training may reward themselves with an ice-cream in the beginning to bolster motivation and get them into a good habit.. when they are an Olympic athlete they may shun the ice=cream as being of detriment rather then benefit.

This all becomes more of an issue when meditation is practised outside of the Noble 8 fold Path as the supporting conditions are then absent. It is like in the sport analogy of taking on the training conditions of an Olympic athlete, when one is really just considering taking up jogging a couple of times a week. It is more likely they will not succeed because the conditions that were need to support the gradual training were skipped.

There is benefit in general checklists, but its important to see them in the broader context.. otherwise one ends up not being able to see the forest for the trees. It is a beautiful, gradual, conditioned Path, with enough flexibility to cater for all individuals and situations. Best wishes for your endevour . :slightly_smiling_face::folded_hands:t2::sunflower:

7 Likes
21

Thank you, this was helpful, in practical sense for my project but generally helpful for my own practice.

3 Likes