Hi friends ,
In the Chinese Agama
the translation Is 观身如身 ！
I. e. Thus he abides in
Contemplating body AS the body .
Does this make more sense ?
kāye (body) 身
kāyānupassī ( Contemplating as the body ) 随觀身
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appropriate , anyone care to
share some opinions ?
" Thus he abides in contemplating the body in the(context of) body internally, or he abides in contemplating the body in the(context of) body externally, or he abides in contemplating the body in the(context of) body internally and externally " .
I do not think this translation is correct.
The objective is to see the body as an aggregate. (see it’s constituents parts)
There is no, body in ultimate senses.
The way I understand, the objective of this phrase is to help the person to eliminate the wrong perception of seen, subject and object.
You see internal (subject) water ( urine, blood etc) then you see external (object) water. (water in the river etc.)
Then you contemplate both urine or river water is just water.
Can one eliminate kilesa
by observing 4 elements compound ?
The way I understand it can be done by practicing four Satipathanas as a whole not on isolation.
Kleshas:
Do you not think
" dhātuvavatthāna "
Practice was adopted
from other hindu philosophy ,
and not the original teaching
from Buddha ?
Could you tell me how Hindus practice this?
Do they practice full Satipathana?
Hi,
It is not Hindus that practice ,
I meant is by adopting
their thinking
(such as Ajita Kesakambala &
Pukudha Kaccayana philosophy)
and mould it into Buddhism .
The Sutta which comprises of
this practice has been altered .
The practice of the 4 elements,
32 parts of the body etc
Is belong to so called
Analysis school .
There were other schools
that disagreed with this practice .
And the Contemplations
body in the body
explained as such was incorrect !
Vibajjhavada is the school that promote analysis as a primary tool for developing insight.
But , IMO the main point is
Buddha teaching
that leads to liberation
has to come back to the 12 D. O. !
Agree.
But you can’t ignore what Buddha learn from other ascetics before his enlightenment.
We can’t learn e=mc2 without knowing what is e,=,m,c, and 2.
e,m,c,2 concepts were already there before Einstein came up with e=mc2.
Precisely because of that ,
one Has to put aside the
other ascetics trainings !
Of course if one find it useful,
beneficial and being helpful
to develop samadhi then one
perhaps may adopt such trainings .
yet at the same time accompanying
and continues in the training
prescribed by the Buddha .
But , by just applying the training
taught by Buddha is most Sufficient .
And the body in the body internally , externally and internally externally
which Refers to 4 elements ,
body 32 parts ,
Corpses Contemplations , etc,
caused many side effects where
suicide occurred and negative
emotions developed .
FYI ,
Internally, externally and internally externally does not mean above training !
Best wishes .
Only if it is unbeneficial and hindrance to the path.
I think it is quite unnecessary
as one May waste a lot of
time in this training.
It doesn’t end our sufferings
so to speak .
Agree.
But one should comprehend the suffering first.
Some people take radiant consciousness as Iccha, Sukha and Atta.
That is exactly why
I said we missed
the main point where
one training Had gone
off the Right View Path !
Without knowing going astray from Buddha taught original training methods .
Your question is answered by Bikkhu Bodhi here:
Yes, your observation seems correct.
In this video Ven. Gnanaweera shares the same thought. (In the Sinhala language)
There is a misconception that there is an observer aware of the thought h hence attempt to stop thoughts.
Accurate contemplation is that thoughts are observing the thoughts.
To me it makes perfect sense and this is how I understand and (humbly) explain it: this is a meditative practice (and the word “practice” is also a suitable translation of “viharati”, translated often as “abiding”). And it is not one of “contemplation” but rather of “recollection” or simply “reminding oneself”, which is also suitable translation of “anupassati”. The meaning in my understanding is simple:
“he meditates (practises recollection) of the body ‘as’ a bare body”.
This is no little practice, this is top of the line here!!
Thanks a lot for sharing this. The Chinese Agama are proving to be so relevant for our interpretive understanding of many Pali expressions, to the extent that I wish I could read it, like you friend @James :).
I also so much like how expressions like that demonstrate beyond any doubt the inescapable and necessary role of interpretation. And how
one’s own Dhamma practice and experience influences the process of conceptual interpretation.
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kāye
I am not sure of Pali.
But in Sinhalease it means in the body.
Body in Sinhalease is Kaya.
Hi there friend ,
Contemplation in Chinese is
沉思 meditation, silently ponder,
注视 watch,
禅 Zen, meditation,
观 is 观察 ie observing , watching .
So, in the dhamma Chinese 观 is observing things as it is
(如实观察事物的实相)
观 short for 内观 ie Vipassana
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