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What is it that is reborn?

rebirth
anatta
soul
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#61

Hi @Deeele

How does this fit in with paṭiccasamuppāda (the causal chain of dependent co-arising)?

If his vitality (āyu), ‘his heat’ and ‘his five sense faculties’ are within the chain, then why do they not cease with the cessation of perception & feeling and the cessation bodily fabrications and the cessation verbal fabrications and the cessation mental fabrications?

Very confusing. Thanks in advance for clarification.


#62

Thanks for the correction, I chose the wrong synonym here. Asankhata (unformed, uncreated) is a better synonym for Nibbana here when we consider that the 8FP and everything else is sankhata (formed, created).


#63

How is this formulation?..

The only state that is not conditioned is nibbana and bodhi.
All other things and states are conditioned phenomena.
So the linguistic expression of the N8P must also be part of conditioned phenomena.

All conditioned phenomena are part of the casual chain of paṭiccasamuppāda.
If the chain is broken, then the conditioned phenomena cease to arise.
The act of breaking the casual chain achieves nibbana and bodhi
Then what had to be done is done. There is no more dukkha and delusion.


#64

What exactly do you mean by this? Is it nibbana, the the attainment experience of nibbana, the conceptualisation of nibbana, etc?


#65

Good question.

nibbana and bodhi occurr at the same time and together.
The first meaning of bohdi is simply awakening, and that awakening entails nibbana.
The second meaning of bohdi is the knowledge of seeing things as they are, which also entails nibbana.

p.s. I think that is why the Buddha said he is awake :slight_smile:


#66

That makes sense to me!


#67

Thank you for the thank you.

I would agree the fixation with the term ‘pāpañca’ appears to be wrong, cultish & inflexible, since the term ‘pāpañca’ appears to have a very specific meaning where as the term ‘sankhara’ has many diverse meanings & uses.

Yes. However, some sankhata things are wholesome or desirable:

Monks, among all things conditioned (dhammā saṅkhatā), the Noble Eightfold Path is reckoned to be the best of them all. Those who have faith in the Noble Eightfold Path have faith in the best; and for those who have faith in the best, the best result will be theirs. AN 4.34

:deciduous_tree:


#68

Suttas such as SN 12.23 & AN 10.61 (which describe a causal fruition towards Nibbana) appear to not support this linguistically, since paṭiccasamuppāda in SN 12.3 is called ‘the wrong path’ (micchāpaṭipadā).

“And what, bhikkhus, is the wrong way (micchāpaṭipadā)? With ignorance as condition, formations come to be; with formations as condition, consciousness…. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is called the wrong way.

“And what, bhikkhus, is the right way (sammāpaṭipadā)? With the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of formations; with the cessation of formations, cessation of consciousness…. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. This, bhikkhus, is called the right way.

Interesting question. The ‘cessation of perception & feeling’ (nirodha sampatti) possibly has as different causation than the ‘cessation of dependent origination’ (paticca nirodha) since nirodha sampatti is samadhi where as paticca nirodha occurs due to wisdom (the cessation of ignorance).

Regards :seedling:


#69

The body still persists (‘old kamma’) in Nirodhasamapatti. The DO is only one thread of causality.

It is mental activity, in the form of volition, that constitutes kamma, and it is our stock of kamma that steers the stream of consciousness from the past life into a new body. Thus the Buddha says: “This body, O monks, is old kamma, to be seen as generated and fashioned by volition, as something to be felt” (SN XI.37). It is not only the body, as a composite whole, that is the product of past kamma, but the sense faculties too (see SN XXV.146). The eye, ear, nose, tongue, body-sense, and mind-base are also fashioned by our past kamma, and thus kamma to some degree shapes and influences all our sensory experience. Since kamma is ultimately explained as volition (cetana), this means that the particular body with which we are endowed, with all its distinguishing features and faculties of sense, is rooted in our volitional activities in earlier lives. Precisely how past volition can influence the development of the zygote lies beyond the range of scientific explanation, but if the Buddha’s words are to be trusted such an influence must be real.

Phenomena cease in nirodhasamapatti throwing ontological reality into question. Yet things arise as long as the person is alive, suggesting it cannot be discounted. The journey, anyway, is not to find absolute truth, but dispassion.

With metta

Mat


#70

well, you must learn how reborn happened without atta. First, birth happened with conditions. This Sutta can help you to understand more. AN 3.76: Becoming (1) (English) - Tika Nipāta - SuttaCentral I’m not fluently speak English so it’s difficult for me to explain completely with you. :sweat_smile:


#71

Thank you, Kay! I’m so grateful you posted this. Over the last week I slowly read it, meditated and opened up to what I needed to understand.

One of the takeaways for me is how the Buddha’s striving culminated in the three knowledges and the full seeing of Dependent Origination and the 8 Fold Path. Rebirth is the key that makes it all fall into place. There isn’t a thing that is reborn, rather a continuation of ignorance and craving. When the Buddha saw his past lives and the lives of countless beings reborn, he saw Dependent Origination as the 8 Fold path, ignorance was ended and he would never be reborn.