For example: is passion the same as love for life?
If we see joy in the eyes, hearts and lifes of children is this their passion?
If people let go of their restraint and have fun in music, express themselves freely in dance, have a good time with eachother, is that passionate? Or is the restraint passionate? The inability to let go.
Yesterday i saw a concert of Andre Rieu on tv. I enjoy this because i see so many happy people, really having a good time. It is heartwarming to see.
I know he creates, ofcourse, a fairy-tale like dream world. But better then living a nightmare. Restraint is also a cause for suffering. A very huge one is my own experience.
My feeling is, we really need to understand what the passion really is we have to abandon.
a strong feeling of enthusiasm or excitement for something or about doing something
In suttas there is the sequence of:
Disillusionment â Dispassion â Desire fades
Forcefully restraining passion/desire or pretending it does not exists can be painful. Why is that? In the truth of suffering it is stated: not getting what you wish for is suffering. If one does not wish to suffer, then either one obtains what one wishes or gives up that wish if one is able to. The suttas teach to give up five kinds of sensual stimulation, desire and passion for them - and to enjoy the pleasure of seclusion, immersion, peace, awakening instead.
When you state that restrain is suffering for you, then ask yourself what is your wish/desire, what are you passionate about, restraining from? If what you are restraining from is skillful then why restrain in the first place? If it is unskillful, its better to apply understanding - that is understand whatâs the cause of wish/desire/passion behind the restraint, what is the gratification, the drawback. Suttas say that by thinking about the drawback, the passion/desire wanes.
People can be passionate about many things: eg. about work, about hobbies, about sights, sounds, smells, tastes, touches, even ideas, about being praised so much that they might do many skillful things so that others praise them, about fame and so on.
Good for you! I too think music can cheer people up. Thou can music help one find the pleasure of seclusion? Thatâs an interesting question, it would have to be some special music.
The point is that there is happiness & pleasure based on senses, companionship etc and this special hard to obtain pleasure & happiness of seclusion which is mentioned in suttas.
One can be compared to a hot fire, another to cool water.
People who go on the quest to find the pleasure of seclusion, give up desire/passion for sensual stimulation, foster seclusion otherwise it is said it would very hard if not near impossible to obtain it.
If they did obtain it, then maybe they would know for themselves which things make them lose that pleasure and theyâd avoid them, etc. Can they still enjoy some sensual pleasures: eg. eat good food? The answer is surprisingly yes:
MN26:
There are ascetics and brahmins who enjoy these five kinds of sensual stimulation without being tied, infatuated, or attached, seeing the drawbacks, and understanding the escape. You should understand that they havenât met with calamity and disaster, and the Wicked One cannot do what he wants with them.
Suppose a deer in the wilderness was lying on a pile of snares without being caught. Youâd know that it hasnât met with calamity and disaster, and the hunter cannot do what he wants with them. And when the hunter comes, it can flee where it wants.
In the same way, there are ascetics and brahmins who enjoy these five kinds of sensual stimulation without being tied, infatuated, or attached, seeing the drawbacks, and understanding the escape. You should understand that they havenât met with calamity and disaster, and the Wicked One cannot do what he wants with them.
Finally, since you like music, Iâll attempt to answer your question âWhat is passion?â through it: listen to the two songs(suitable for children) back to back and see the passion of the artists behind the first and the other one. Is there a perceptible difference? You can also notice whether you yourself are passionate or dispassionate about listening to these. These songs can for sure cheer one up - it may be even next to impossible to be depressed while listening to them - but its not pleasure of seclusion.
I am not really a music lover. I like seeing Andre Rieu concerts because it is as it were a feel good moment. It is not that i have all concert of AR on my computer or start to seek AR when the mind is down But i must admit i like feeling good tv.
A very different sphere between the two songs. The first i experience more as joyful or high in energy and the second as more calming, low in energy. One earthening, and the other more lyrical. But i would not say that high in energy is the same as passionate. I cannot really find good words for it, i notice.
By the way, when i said that restraint is a huge cause of suffering, i meant that many people are very judgemental towards their needs, emotions, desires. They constant feel they must hide what really goes on in them. They are not able to express themselves freely. They are extremely locked in, as it were. I was for very long this way. Such people can look calm but they are not at all. But we all learn strategies to show this are that Persona. I have never ever been seen as anxious, insecure person but i always was.
Dhamma has made me see how humane, how normal, all really is. Also conceit.
I feel Buddha never judges. He was really not a small minded person. Very great hearted. In Dhamma i came to see that what is with us, has been with us for endless lives. Conceit is so normal. Agression is so normal. Greed is so normal. Jalousy is so normal. It is not oke, to live and practice like such emotions may not exist. That is violent.
In dhamma i found a Path that does not deal with anything as good and bad but more as skilful and unskilful or as wholesome and unwholesome. I feel that is really great. For example, what is the use of judging people low or negative? Judging makes them only more conceited. Only love, wisdom, compassion can help people, no judgemental mind. But i also accept judgemental as normal, humane.
I have suffered very much from being so locked in, as it were. And when i finally started to open up a bit more and shared my ideas, emotions, desires, i had many panic attacks.
But also fears, insecurity, anxiety, very humane too, often are hidden and also judged as low, negative, âmay not existâ. There is nothing more violent thenâŠmay not exist⊠because when something is there, this mentallity is violent.
That last i also have, a bit to extreme. I have a very strong tendency to be praised, especially here and what Dhamma matters. There has always been in me a fundamental tone of insecurity, not daring to rely on my self. This is also quit a struggle but i believe it is not going bad.
In general i feel we all very much seek self-affirmation. People who think they do not, are often only in denial or in a role of playing a well-behaved human being.
I have accepted more and more as totally normal and humane, even extremes things as violence, perverted behavior, narcism, extreme longings to be praised. Al such is normal and humane. Some people talk about humane much to idealistic. Like being a human not also meansâŠable to be extreme violentâŠegocentricâŠjudgementalâŠpervertâŠhypocryt etc. Also such is humane.
I have seen there are often wounds in play. There where there are wounds there arises extreme behavior. Also this is oke. We can all make attemps to heal and help eachother. Becoming judgemental is the path of small-mindedness. That will not go to Nibbana.
This topic is also not about me doubting Dhamma or me doubting that Nibbana is the highest bliss. I am sure that I am conceit is an extremely heavy burden. But it must always be in balance, i see. Because, if one would practice dhamma motivated by the fear to exist, that goes wrong. It seems like for all is a good and bad reason.
Yes, fear of imagined criticism can be a cause of attempting to suppress needs, emotions, desires, passions, etc. Once again courage and fourfold sati can help to bring it to light. And as you mentioned judging oneself for having desires/passions is indeed another problem - the suttas teach to learn to observe if citta is overcome with passion/fear/etc or not, and many other things.
Itâs more pleasant to rest in the light then hide in the dark. Well, in other words, I think that people who are accustomed to hiding desires/passion will first have to learn how to let go of that unskillful habit. Once again they can use understanding - what is the gratification of hiding? They get âfeeling of peace/lack-of-confrontation/praise/affirmationâ from others, or at least they think they do. What is the drawback? It is suffering to hide desires/passions.
Then I suppose we could say that you are passionate about Dhamma - as you consider it worth it to be praised in matters regarded to it.
Yes, I think it is a sort of motivational energy - its much better to be motivated by passion, then by fear or guilt (imagine if you studied Dhamma out of fear or guilt - it would be completely different and not in a good manner). Enthusiasm (chanda), being energetic (viriya) should be even better I think.
I too would have questions regarding raga (passion), viraga (dispassion). I wonder if an awakened one can still have passion & uses it in skillful way or do they no longer need it and use different form of motivation to do daily activities like chanda/viriya etc. Or maybe passion can still arise but they no longer get overwhelmed by it. I too would wonder how others would differentiate between raga(passion)/chanda(desire/yearning)/viriya(energy), viraga(dispassion)/upekkha(equanimity).
Sutta MN74 says that disillusionment with feeling (both pleasant/unpleasant/neutral), leads to dispassion about it and freedom.
Seeing this, a learned noble disciple grows disillusioned with pleasant, painful, and neutral feelings.
Nicely said. I experience it this way: liberation also means not abalieniate from anything and anyone.
I believe all beings seek protection and safety but seek this in a wrong way. A Buddha makes us see how we can arrive at safety and protection. Not by seeking grip but by letting go. The opposite of what we are ingrained to do.
I feel this is indeed really important for everybody. But i also have issues like wanting to be seen as wise person etc. And i also see that conceit develops in me when i thinkâŠthat i have nicely said Oh, oh, I am not a noble. Especially when people start to ignore me i tend to become more and more seeking affirmation. But it does not matter. It is my issue and it are great lessons.
Nice, i think that is better then just energy.
I think the suttaâs always connect passion to ignorance. That is also an important entrence i think to understand what passion is.
I personally believe that a Buddha does not become willess. He can use the will.
But i do not believe a Buddha has still passion. So i do not think that any volitional activity is passion.
Passion i do not tend to see as only arising after feeling nidana (in PS) but also the arising of sankhara is already the arising of an element of passion. There is passion in the arising of the plan or intent to have some sensual pleasure while walking to the fridge, but there is also already passion in a tendency to do something which is hardly really a conscious thing. Many people just habitually kill insects that annoy.
They hardly notice what they do. A visual, a whack and insect is killed. In this sense i think the tendency to kill is different from someone who is for long planning to kill someone. But i think it is all passion.
Yes, the extinguishment of the khandhaâs lies in the dispassion towards them. The dispassion towards feelings is the escape. Feeling grows cool when the passion for it is gone. Passion is also dislike not only like. Extinguishment of the khandhaâs is in this very life possible. It is not a cessation of khandhaâs but refers to khandhaâs that are not ignited anymore by passion. I have seen this in my study or parinibbana in the suttaâs.
I tend to agree. If one craves for something to happen that is passion.
But i see a Buddha who was very concerned, for example, with beings having right and wrong views and also very concerned that people did develop a right understanding of his teachings. Does this imply passion?
No. Some Arahants do teach, others donât. The Buddha was begged by the Brahma to teach (MN26) and only then decided to teach. Once you do teach to stop the suffering, you might as well do it right - adding to the suffering by bad teaching would be the worst.
A quest for answers is just another attachment (MN25, MN63). That insight was part of the Buddhaâs enlightenment under the Bodhi tree. Following that experience he had the answers.
I think you are right about this. But i also think that to play cool, calm, collected is also very different from really being dispassionate. And probably 99,999% of people who seem cool, calm and collected are not really dispassionate.
I meanâŠone must not play cool, calm and collected and think one can fake dispassion until one makes it. Such i believe is not the Path.
I also feel it would be wrong not to seek anything because then one will probably not learn the lessons one needs to learn.
Passion is all that causes there is more then minds natural receptivity, its bare awareness, a knowing ability in its most pure form. Passion is what causes there is more in the seen, heard, felt, known then what is seen, heard, felt and known.
Oh, oh, I am not a noble. Especially when people start to ignore me i tend to become more and more seeking affirmation. But it does not matter. It is my issue and it are great lessons.