Beings as in the 5 aggregates being reborn is mundane view, the 3 poisons arising and ceasing is supermundane view. It’s all relative to dukkha and what solves dukkha.
Hence sotapannas still suffer.
That’s why ignorance-sense contact can still arise for any aryan except for the Arahant. For a sotapanna it can arise from any of the hindrances except doubt, for a non-returner it can arise through restlessness.
Hence the Buddha saying they just need to apply Supermundane view to where it’s coming from to put an end to that stream of defilement. In the example below he’s saying to apply Supermundane view to the hindrance of doubt for someone on the verge of becoming a sotapanna.
I.e. they should view doubt as conditioned, anicca, dukkha, anatta, and they have to apply the path and Supermundane view over and over until all gaps (hindrances, fetters, mundane views) are eliminated. In short, it’s a process of switching every cognition arising from sense contact from ignorant conventional mundane view to seeing things as they are wise Supermundane view.
When this is done, for that moment, craving is averted, pamojja (joy) arises instead, which can develop into jhana, whether for a length of a finger snap, if the next sense contact is ignorant, or longer, if the next sense contact is not ignorant.
Sotapanna suffer, but much-much-much-much less than puthujjana. At most 7 existences for stream enterer especially without any effort.
Also, Not everyone is at that level you explain. One needs to develop the faculties to be able to maintain supramundane right view especially sati/samadhi. Please check the following 2 sutta that said stream enterer still has a mundane right view.
SN 55.53
… Sir, we live at home with our children, using sandalwood imported from Kāsi, wearing garlands, perfumes, and makeup, and accepting gold and money.
…
“You’re fortunate, Dhammadinna, so very fortunate!
You have all declared the fruit of stream-entry.”
SN 55.54
“Mahānāma, a wise lay follower should put at ease another wise lay follower who is sick, suffering, gravely ill with four consolations.
… Are you concerned for your mother and father?’
If they reply,
‘I am,’ they should say:
‘But sir, it’s your nature to die.
If one doesn’t have any concern for family, they would have go forth. Become homeless and threw away all worldly things: family, money, work, etc.
As Buddha said in many suttas such as DN 2:
‘Living in a house is cramped and dirty, but the life of one gone forth is wide open.
It’s not easy for someone living at home to lead the spiritual life utterly full and pure, like a polished shell.
Why don’t I shave off my hair and beard, dress in ocher robes, and go forth from the lay life to homelessness?’
I don’t see what anything you wrote in your comment has to do with the earlier discussion. I never said anything about it being hard or easy. Seems like a different discussion here is being made. The point was that Supermundane view is not always “on” for those less developed, and when it’s not “on” then suffering ensues. Yes, obviously puthujjanas suffer more, they never have Supermundane right view.
It seems like you assumed that a sotapanna always had Supermundane view all the time so you wrote your earlier comment about sotapannas not being in jhana all the time, and I explained to you that supermundane view is not always “on”, so you changed the discussion to something else.
Could you please confirm among these statements below, which ones are correctly reflect your understanding?
#1. Seeing “beings going through rebirth process”: That is mundane view.
#2A. Seeing “rebirth process as suffering”: That is supramundane view. #2B. Seeing “rebirth process as 3 poisons arising and ceasing”: That is supramundane view. #2C. Seeing “rebirth process as 5 aggregates arising and ceasing”: That is supramundane view.
I don’t know why but you seem to be talking from experience! Sir plz answer my following question only…how much time it will take to experience this all so that this view becomes natural and not forced for any normal person who is just aware of these things only theoretically?
We’re not supposed to talk about experience as per the forum rules. But I can tell you that Ayya Khemas meditation talks led me to having the best meditation years of my life.
@Thito I am still waiting for your reply and have added 2 more sentences below here:
#2D. Seeing “ONLY 5 aggregates (or 3 poisons) arising and ceasing, NO rebirth process”: That is supramundane view. #2E. Seeing “ONLY 5 aggregates (or 3 poisons) arising and ceasing, rebirth process is not different from other processes mentioned in DO”: That is supramundane view.
Could you please confirm among these statements above (1, 2A,…,2E), which ones correctly reflect your understanding?
If none of them correctly reflect your understanding, please phrase your understanding so that I can understand better (something like “Seeing “…”: That is mundane/supramundane view”). Thank you.
This sutta, and the relation to taking up a self, is discussed by Patrick Kearney in the talk “Freedom and Fall” in the " Exploring Insight – A series of talks on the three characteristics for Heart Insight Brisbane Meditation Group" series here: Audio - Patrick Kearney. I think he makes similar points to you.
See allso Pages 14–16 of Concept and Reality in Early Buddhist Thought, by Venerable Bhikkhu Kaṭukurunde Ñāṇananda. Books Archive - seeing through the net
It will be seen that each of the nine propositions given above is
qualified by five adjectives: 'maññitaṁ, ‘iñjitaṁ’, ‘phanditaṁ’,
‘papañcitaṁ’, and ‘mānagataṁ’. These latter may be examined in the
light of what we have already stated regarding the question of
‘aspects’ in Buddhist psychology. ‘Maññita’ ( √ man - to think) points
to the thought activity or imagination which gives rise to those
propositions. ‘Iñjita’ ( √ iñj - ‘to move’) reminiscent of the term ‘ejâ’
which is a synonym for ‘taõhâ’, probably refers to the emotional
appeal of the propositions. ‘Phandita§’ ( √ spand - ‘to throb’, ‘to
palpitate’) views them as characterised by the restless mental activity.
‘Mânagata§’ ( √ mâ - ‘to measure’) traces their origin to the measuring
and judging tendency inherent in conceptual activity, which is itself a
constant process of value-judgment. ‘Papañcitaṁ’ ('pra- √ pañc - ‘to
spread out’, ‘to expand’) may likewise imply the prolific tendency in
conceptualisation which gave rise to those propositions. The
proposition ‘asmi’ (‘I am’) is the foremost ‘papañcita,’ and the
Madhupiõóika Sutta has already shown us why it is to be reckoned a
product of ‘papañca’. The other propositions portray perhaps more
clearly, the prolificity in the realm of ideation —the individuating,
generalising, particularising and dichotomising tendencies which
provide the scaffolding for theoretical superstructures. The particular
context in which ‘papañcita’ occurs in this sutta, thus lends colour to
the assumption that ‘papañca’ signifies the inveterate tendency
towards proliferation in the realm of ideation.
