What is subjectivity?

FYI. This is an excellent and very clear teaching covering this discussion.

https://bswa.org/teaching/sutta-class-3/

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If we choose to favor the company of pleasant people…
or we choose to avoid the company of unpleasant people,
we might just be (just a wee tiny bit) just be:

making decisions prejudiced by favoritism, hostility, stupidity, and cowardice.

Gently relinquishing small prejudices with each passing moment helps us deal with large prejudices.

That’s really all I meant by the practice of restraint.

By all means talk with your nice neighbor…
…and also talk to your not-so-nice neighbor.
With the same open heart, restraining the prejudice.

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Just a level of degree I think. Are you suggesting that they are qualitively different states?

Yes, they are different! Pleasant, painful and, neutral experiences happen to Arahants - as well - but, there’s no delighting in the pleasant, no aversion with regard to pain. No adding to the hedonic-tone of experience. An Arahant is fearless in pain and, equanimious in pleasure. ‘They are not bewildered by such a change’ - Krishna

I have trouble understanding how that answers my question about the difference between enjoyment and delight. … Or did I inadvertently quote you out of context? Apologies if I did.

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I once was very sad for a few days in succession, it had been building-up inside for some time. It was not like the sadness and grief I had experienced on other occasions or, anything to do with physical discomfort, pain.

It was a miserable-despair and, I was incapable of enjoying anything. I think it was depression. I went to Dhammaloka and listened to the chanting of the loving-kindness Sutta.

I tried to chant along but I had real trouble connecting with the teaching. Then, I put forth effort to lift my spirits and connect with the teaching in a heartfelt way.

It was difficult, but there were a few moments where it worked. After that my mood began to improve and, I started to come out of the despair.

It took a few days to gain a chemical-balance. I think my chemistry - in my brain, and hormones - where making it difficult for me to experience a positive mood and, the Sutta recitation triggered a healing process.

I guess your right? In the thesaurus, delight and enjoyment are much of a muchness.

We might need to look beyond standard definitions to understand the teachings.

You know about the teachings on ‘pain, pleasure and, neutral feelings’. Every human being experiences all 3 - correct?

We also know how different people react to pleasure, pain and, ‘neither pleasant or unpleasant’ (neutral feeling) - yes?

When ‘delight’ is referred to in the EBT’s, it refers to a kind of ‘reaction’ to pleasant feelings, revelling in them.

I sometimes enjoy pleasant events and just let them come and go. If I exaggerate the importance of fleeting pleasures I may become preoccupied with them. Seeking to repeat those enjoyable experiences over and over again.

I ‘believe’ the word ‘delight’ - as found in the EBT’s - involves an inskilful reaction to enjoyable happenings. Transforming them into something else, a precursor to ‘attachment’ - clinging.

I believe there’s a difference between ‘enjoyment’- just feeling good - and, delight?

I don’t think the teachings are saying we shouldn’t be happy and we shouldn’t enjoy our lives but, they do caution against attachment.

I see enjoyment as just having pleasant feelings - including feeling happy. The simile of the trap, the snare* comes to mind. Delight is something we can get drawn into if, we don’t see the danger. Whereas, ‘enjoying the moment’ is not a problem - if there is good Sila.

Does that make sense?

*Some translation issues in the Nivāpa Sutta

“He who binds to himself a joy Does the winged life destroy He who kisses the joy as it flies Lives in eternity’s sunrise.” - William Blake

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Thanks for the quote! I was startled to see that it exactly matches my understanding of

Nandī dukkhassa mūlan

:heart: :small_airplane: :sunrise:

I would also note that relishing the joy of the moment is also…an attachment and a craving that leads to suffering. That is actually why I felt fear all day on that cliff. The sense of impermanence drowned out my habitual joy of the moment. One cannot run away from impermanence by chasing the joy of the moment. Joy itself disappears.

Blake says nothing about chasing anything.

The poem is about the simple joys that come and go and, being awake to the passing joy - it’s on the wing. There’s nothing about chasing the flying joy.

If we didn’t experience any joy at all we would be Flat-liners. Probably brain-dead, catatonic or, suffering from depression.

To suggest that the Dhamma is a joyless teaching is very odd. To believe that the Dhamma teaches us to attach to joy - or anything else is - would be a misunderstanding. To experience joy, and pleasant feelings is not a problem, as long as there’s good Sila, joy, pleasant feelings, happiness will increase not decrease.

To pretend that we don’t appreciate or enjoy feeling good, having positive emotions, without clinging, anxiety or, neediness, would be a form of neurosis.

Be happy, enjoy your life, enjoy your Dhamma-mittas. Buddhism does not council despair or indifference. Equanimity is fine but it’s only one awakening factor. Consider the other six, rapture is good for you!

Exactly. The Buddha did and suggested we not.

If he doesn’t council any chasing he is not contradicting the teaching about not chasing anything. Why are you suggesting Blake has said anything about a pursuit of joy when there is nothing of the sort actually said?

Poor old-Blake would be rolling in his grave! :heart_eyes:

“binds” <=> “craving”

Yes Karl, he is saying don’t ‘bind’, don’t attach, don’t fixate on joy because that will ‘destroy’ joy.

Blake is talking about the negative consequences of binding, attaching, chasing after things ie. craving.

What are the consequence of trying to capture and hold-onto joy? He gives the answer: the joy is destroyed!

It’s in flight, it’s pointless to try and capture it, it’s impermanent - here one minute gone the next.

The meaning of the poem is not to go craving after things but, to be lighthearted, responsive to the positive and uplifting happenings in daily life.

Do not try to bind and possess, don’t try to chase after and capture, the ephemeral, the passing, the fleeting positive experiences we rejoice in - there ‘on the wing’.

They don’t last so there’s no point chasing them, trying to capture and bind them, to take them prisoner. To try and make them a possession.

When we feel good, when we are quick to appreciate the uplifting happenings around us, that’s a good thing.

We may feel good about a million little things we see and experience in daily life.

Acts of kindness, innocence, simplicity, wisdom, patience, unselfishness, humour, cheerfulness, the happiness of oneself and others and, the list goes on and on and…

If somebody is incapable of rejoicing, feeling exuberant - inwardly happy and ebullient - then that’s unfortunate.

We can enjoy and appreciate the daily blessings we experience in life and, we can also feel the deep sufferings in the world and, we can experience profound calm and equanimity - non-attachment. These heart-jewels are not mutually exclusive.

They are all an inevitable consequence of waking up to the way it is. There’s nothing problematic about feeling good. We don’t have to hope these fleeting positive emotions vanish in case we get attached to them. That would be useless, pointless and, misguided.

When we see, experience, the joy of others, when they are in company, or alone, in nature or, on a busy street etc. We don’t think, how foolish, this person is attached, they should wake up to there foolhardy ways.

If we see a reunion, people enjoying each other’s company, feeling ecstatic and full of love for one another, we don’t feel they are being foolish, they have lost their mental balance. We don’t ask: where’s their equanimity, snap out of it! Pull yourself together!

We share in the joy, we enjoy seeing the joy in others and, the happiness that arises in our own :heartbeat:. This is Buddhism 101!

It’s easy to smile when life sails along - like a song.
But, the man whose worthwhile, is the one who can smile, when everything goes dead-wrong!

The psychologists call it: emotional intelligence.

The Buddha, Blake, Laurence and Karl all agree on the wisdom of not clinging to joy.

And that would also include not clinging to future joys, yes?

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A wise man once said: cling to naught - correct? I wonder who that was? He must have been a kalyana-mitta with deep wisdom and unconditional loving kindness. That lit-up/illuminated, warmed and softened, his :heartbeat: and awakened mind? Full of emotional ‘intelligence’ (buddhi)?

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Yes, this is where things get sticky - like velcrose. The phenomenal display is just a passing parade. It’s all ‘water off a duck’s back’.

‘Delight’ seems to involve something stickier than just enjoying the moment for what it is. It’s some kind of emotional investment that can lead to the desire to repeat, repeat.

We may ‘delight’ in a beautiful conversation, a nice meal etc. but, instead of just enjoying it for what it is, pleasant feelings arising, pleasant feelings passing, something else happens?

We register the pleasant experience and don’t let it go. We have attached to much importance to it. We seek to bind the joy, possess it, repeat it over and over.

The wheels have come off, we got stuck in the mud - oh dear! The passing parade has been arrested, one of the ‘floats’ has broken down - it’s a recurrent problem in life.

It must be just like I want it - the fault-finding mind. We can be winjaholics? Buddha-Dhamma is ‘winjaholics anonymous’ with an eight-step program - not 12.

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I agree there’s a difference, albeit one that is difficult to pin down. English is a notoriously ‘fluid’ language and I fear that efforts to use it to pin down precisely the meaning of Pali is doomed to only partial success.

Also, I don’t think that its use in English translations is always to indicate an undesirable state. Take for example the number of times hearers delight in the words of teachings they receive, eg:

Then those monks delighted in the Blessed One’s teaching. Having delighted and expressed their gratitude they departed from the Blessed One’s presence.
SuttaCentral

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Yes, it’s used in a positive and negative way - in the translations. It seems easier for me to understand the positive meaning but, it requires a bit more ‘investigation’ (dhamma vicaya) to understand it’s other meaning/usage in the texts.

The positive definition is commonplace - easily understood. The other definition must be important, understanding the meaning through direct experience.

Otherwise, we would not find it in the teachings. The Buddha gave us what we need to explore and realise - for waking up.

He said understanding the Dhamma is like picking up a dangerous :snake:. We have to understand just what it is he has shared with us - care-fully.

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Thanks for posting sutta references!

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