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What is the difference in the EBT's between an Arahant and a Buddha, other than succession?


#1

In the EB literature, what is the difference between an Arahant and a Buddha, other than that an Arahant attains Awakening dependent on the dispensation of a Buddha and a Buddha attains it alone?

If an “Arahant” were to arise without a dependency on the dispensation of a Buddha (if such a thing were possible), that Arahant would simply be a Buddha, correct? …because he would have attained Awakening all on his own?


#2

From SN 22.58:


#3

[quote=“raivo, post:2, topic:5060”]
“The Tathagata, bhikkhus, the Arahant, the Perfectly Enlightened One,
[/quote]That seems like a reasonable answer.


#4

A few suttas give mention of a paccekabuddha (eg. AN10.16). Up until checking just now, I had taken it as a given that this meant “one who awakened on their own” as per the definition given by the Dictionary of Pali Proper Names, but looking it up on Sutta Central, I note a modified & highly trimmed DPPN definition (of “one who is enlightened without establishing a religion…”) so I now wonder if the meaning of this term is contested.


#5

such definition fits any arahant, thus the defining factor in difference between them must be something else


#6

If it was just one who is enlightened without establishing a religion then Buddhist arahants would be paccekabuddha because they don’t establish a religion since they are already buddhist.

So it must be one who awakened on their own but who dies without proclaiming the truth to the world

sidenote: How do we know about paccekabuddhas? They were silent and never proclaimed their awakening. In the link you provide it says: They cannot instruct others; their realization of the Dhamma is “like a dream seen by a deaf mute.” So how do we know about them?
The answer is here : MN 116

I think :slight_smile::anjal:


#7

@LXNDR & @DaoYaoTao congrats for having the same thought at the same time! :smiley: And a most valid observation, too! As for the actual point at hand; I think you’ll have to take it up with the SC editors, I was just highlighting what the DPPN and the SC edited DPPN say. :laughing:


#8

As well as raivo’s answer, there are the 10 Tathagata powers. It seems to me that the powers 8-10 and possibly 7 are attainable by others as well.

[quote]“Sāriputta, the Tathāgata has these ten Tathāgata’s powers, possessing which he claims the herd-leader’s place, roars his lion’s roar in the assemblies, and sets rolling the Wheel of Brahmā. What are the ten?

(1) “Here, the Tathāgata understands as it actually is the possible as possible and the impossible as impossible. And that is a Tathāgata’s power that the Tathāgata has, by virtue of which he claims the herd-leader’s place, roars his lion’s roar in the assemblies, and sets rolling the Wheel of Brahmā.

(2) “Again, the Tathāgata understands as it actually is the results of actions undertaken, past, future, and present, by way of possibilities and causes. That too is a Tathāgata’s power…

(3) “Again, the Tathāgata understands as it actually is the ways leading to all destinations. That too is a Tathāgata’s power…

(4) “Again, the Tathāgata understands as it actually is the world with its many and different elements. That too is a Tathāgata’s power…

(5) “Again, the Tathāgata understands as it actually is how beings have different inclinations. That too is a Tathāgata’s power…

(6) “Again, the Tathāgata understands as it actually is the disposition of the faculties of other beings, other persons. That too is a Tathāgata’s power…

(7) “Again, the Tathāgata understands as it actually is the defilement, the cleansing, and the emergence in regard to the jhānas, liberations, concentrations, and attainments. That too is a Tathāgata’s power…

(8) “Again, the Tathāgata recollects his manifold past lives, that is, one birth, two births…as Sutta 4, §27…Thus with their aspects and particulars he recollects his manifold past lives. That too is a Tathāgata’s power…

(9) “Again, with the divine eye, which is purified and surpasses the human, the Tathāgata sees beings passing away and reappearing, inferior and superior, fair and ugly, fortunate and unfortunate…as Sutta 4, §29 …and he understands how beings pass on according to their actions. That too is a Tathāgata’s power…

(10) “Again, by realising for himself with direct knowledge, the Tathāgata here and now enters upon and abides in the deliverance of mind and deliverance by wisdom that are taintless with the destruction of the taints. That too is a Tathāgata’s power that the Tathāgata has, by virtue of which he claims the herd-leader’s place, roars his lion’s roar in the assemblies, and sets rolling the Wheel of Brahmā.

“The Tathāgata has these ten Tathāgata’s powers, possessing which he claims the herd-leader’s place, roars his lion’s roar in the assemblies, and sets rolling the Wheel of Brahmā.

“Sāriputta, when I know and see thus, should anyone say of me: ‘The recluse Gotama does not have any superhuman states, any distinction in knowledge and vision worthy of the noble ones. The recluse Gotama teaches a Dhamma merely hammered out by reasoning, following his own line of inquiry as it occurs to him’—unless he abandons that assertion and that state of mind and relinquishes that view, then as surely as if he had been carried off and put there he will wind up in hell. Just as a bhikkhu possessed of virtue, concentration, and wisdom would here and now enjoy final knowledge, so it will happen in this case, I say, that unless he abandons that assertion and that state of mind and relinquishes that view, then as surely as if he had been carried off and put there he will wind up in hell.

MN 12[/quote]


#9

What about Bob? I didn’t see his name in the list… there’s got to be a Bob!
:grin:


#10

I think 7-10 is a matter of degree. His mental faculties outstripped even those in the closest circle like Ven Sariputta. There is a sutta where he asks whether Sariputta can know of past Buddha’s through his psychic power, when Sariputta claims all past Buddha’s teach the same path where ‘not even a cat can sneak in’ (if I remember correctly).

With metta

Mat


#11

You thinking of DN 16?

[quote]Then the Gracious One, after living near Ambalaṭṭhikā for as long as he liked, addressed venerable Ānanda, saying: “Come Ānanda let us approach Nāḷandā.”

“Very well, reverend Sir,” venerable Ānanda replied to the Gracious One. Then the Gracious One together with a great Community of monks arrived at Nāḷandā. There the Gracious One lived near Nāḷandā in Pāvārika’s Mango Wood.

Then venerable Sāriputta approached the Gracious One, and after approaching and worshipping the Gracious One, he sat down on one side. While sitting on one side venerable Sāriputta said this to the Gracious One: “I have confidence, reverend Sir, in the Gracious One in this way: that neither in the past, the future, or at present is there found another ascetic or brahmin who has more deep knowledge in regard to Perfect Awakening than the Gracious One.”

“You have spoken this great and imposing speech, Sāriputta, a definite, well-grasped, lion’s roar that was roared, saying: ‘I have confidence, reverend Sir, in the Gracious One in this way: that neither in the past, the future, or at present is there found another ascetic or brahmin who has more deep knowledge in regard to Perfect Awakening than the Gracious One.’

But have you, Sāriputta, understood those who, in past times, were Worthy and Perfect Sambuddhas, and known with your mind the minds of those Gracious Ones? Or that those Gracious Ones had such and such virtues, those Gracious Ones had such and such qualities, those Gracious Ones had such and such wisdom, those Gracious Ones had such and such lifestyles, those Gracious Ones had such and such liberations?”

“No, reverend Sir.”

“But have you, Sāriputta, understood those who, in the future times, will be Worthy and Perfect Sambuddhas, and known with your mind the minds of those Gracious Ones? Or that those Gracious Ones will have such and such virtues, those Gracious Ones will have such and such qualities, those Gracious Ones will have such and such wisdom, those Gracious Ones will have such and such lifestyles, those Gracious Ones will have such and such liberations?”

“No, reverend Sir.”

“But have you understood I, who am, at present, a Worthy and Perfect Sambuddha, and known with your mind my mind? Or that the Gracious One has such and such virtues, the Gracious One has such and such qualities, the Gracious One has such and such wisdom, the Gracious One has such and such a lifestyle, the Gracious One has such and such a liberation?”

“No, reverend Sir.”

“Here then, Sāriputta, in regard to those past, future, and present Worthy and Perfect Sambuddhas you have no full and exact knowledge with your own mind. Then how is it, Sāriputta, at present that you have spoken such a great and imposing speech, a definite, well-grasped, lion’s roar that was roared, saying: ‘I have confidence, reverend Sir, in the Gracious One in this way: that neither in the past, the future, or at present is there found another ascetic or brahmin who has more deep knowledge in regard to Perfect Awakening than the Gracious One’?”

“I do not, reverend Sir, in regard to those past, future, and present Worthy and Perfect Sambuddhas have full and exact knowledge with my own mind. However, I understand what I said is in conformity with the Teaching.

It is like a King’s city, reverend Sir, near the border areas, having strong foundations, strong walls and gateways, and a single door, and there is a watchman, wise, accomplished, and intelligent, warding off those unknown, and letting through those well-known. While going around the road on inspection through the whole of that city he may not see such fissures in the wall or openings in the wall that even a cat could go out through, it may be so, but he knows: ‘Whatever grosser beings enter or depart from this city all of them surely enter or depart through this door.’

Similarly, reverend Sir, I understand it is in conformity with the Teaching, that whoever, reverend Sir, in the past times, are Worthy Ones, Perfect Sambuddhas, all those Gracious Ones, after giving up the five hindrances, have penetrated with wisdom the corruptions of the mind that make one feeble, have established their minds in the four ways of attending to mindfulness, and after developing just as it is the Seven Factors of Awakening, have awakened to the unsurpassed and Perfect Awakening.

That whoever, reverend Sir, in the future times, are Worthy Ones, Perfect Sambuddhas all those Gracious Ones, after giving up the five hindrances, and penetrating with wisdom the corruptions of the mind that make one feeble, and establishing their minds in the four ways of attending to mindfulness, and developing just as it is the Seven Factors of Awakening, will awaken to the unsurpassed and Perfect Awakening.

And the Gracious One, reverend Sir, in the present time, the Worthy One, the Perfect Sambuddha, also after giving up the five hindrances, has penetrated with wisdom the corruptions of the mind that make one feeble, has established his mind in the four ways of attending to mindfulness, and after developing just as it is the Seven Factors of Awakening, has awoken to the unsurpassed and Perfect Awakening.”[/quote]


#12

The term found here, namely, Sammāsambuddha, also seems to resolve the female arahant debate.

When MN 115 states a Buddha cannot arise from female faculties, MN 115 is referring to a Sammāsambuddha rather than to a arahant.

Female faculties can become arahants but they cannot be the one & only Sammāsambuddha.

Aṭṭhānametaṃaṭṭhāna anavakāso yaṃ itthī (female) arahaṃ assa sammāsambuddho, netaṃ ṭhānaṃ vijjatī’ti pajānāti; ‘ṭhānañca kho etaṃ vijjati yaṃ puriso (male) arahaṃ assa sammāsambuddho, ṭhānametaṃ vijjatī’ti pajānāti. MN 115

:cherry_blossom:


#13

Arahant refers to one who’s mental fermentations (asavas) are ended, thus all paccekabuddhas and sammasambuddhas are arahants as well.

But the words are usually used like this:

Arahants achieve enlightenment learning from an existing enlightened teacher.

Paccekabuddhas achieve enlightenment independently without a teacher but don’t set the dhamma wheel in motion or establish a religion.

Sammasambuddhas achieve enlightenment independently without a teacher, roll the dhamma wheel, and establish an order or religion.

It is clear on many occassions that Sammasambuddhas are more skilled in teaching or more developed in the six higher knowledges than other arahants.

There are some arahants who don’t have iddhi powers or are not well-developed in the other five higher knowledges.

Examples of arahants being different from Sammasambuddhas:

  • The arahant Pindola Bharadvaga displays his iddhi power by flying and taking down a bowl, The Buddha rebukes him and forbids monks from displaying iddhi powers to the lay people ( Vin.ii.110 f)
  • Angulimala , the killer after achieving arahantship receives blows to his head goes to The Tathāgata (The Buddha tells him the kamma that would’ve caused him to go hell for thousands of years he is experiencing here and now instead MN 86)
  • Sariputta, a chief arahant acknowledges not knowing much about past or future Sammasambuddhas (DN 16)
  • The Buddha refuses the chief arahant Moggallana’s offer to get monks food from Uttarakuru (Vin.iii.7)

So all arahants are equal in achieving the main goal the ending of mental fermentations (āsavakkhaya) but still differ:

  • Still experience the effects of their own past kamma (such as Angulimala experiencing bloody blows to the head, Moggallana being murdered)
  • May or may not be well-developed in the other five higher knowledges (Moggallana was very developed in iddhi, Sariputta in wisdom, and so on)
  • Still have different bodies, brains, kamma

Sammasambuddhas seem to have especially good kamma that makes them a supreme perfect teacher.