What is the First Noble Truth?

[DaoYaoTao]

@Mat

Arahanth magga (path) is the practice leading up to the attainment of nibbana, Arahanth phala is the phase after the attainment

Another gap in my knowledge is filled.

[DaoYaoTao]

@Mat

Only complete cessation is freedom from the incessant arising and passing away of the aggregates- and they will no longer be clingable and will be seen as dukkha.

@Mat

This is post nibbanic experience. This is the ‘fruit’ or phala phase of attainment.

1. Is there a name for the post nibbanic experience condition that the arahant is in ? The post-nibbanic state?
2. Surely the post nibbanic condition, this state of being, is accompanied by new knowledge; the world is seen in a complete different way to the pre-nibbanic state?

[Mat]

@DaoYaoTao

Is there a name for the post nibbanic experience condition that the arahant is in ? The post-nibbanic state?

It is Arahantha phala. They are enjoying the ‘fruit’ (phala) of becoming an arahanth, freed from all types of mental suffering.

@DaoYaoTao

Surely the post nibbanic condition, this state of being, is accompanied by new knowledge; the world is seen in a complete different way to the pre-nibbanic state?

Yes, that’s true. However there are 4 stages of enlightenment: stream entry (Sotapatti), once-returner (sakadagami), non-returner (anagami) and full enlightenment (arahanth). So in terms of insight there is a gradual deepening.

In some ways the greatest seismic shift is when the ontologically real world is actually seen to be causally arisen (idapaccayata) in the path to Stream entry (first there is contemplated knowledge ‘nana’ of this, followed by Seeing ‘dassana’ in insight practice). If you have seen the movie Matrix, where people are living in a computer simulation (the ‘Matrix’) and they get unplugged from it and experience the real world- it is a bit like that.

A lot of it is baggage that we have added on to our experience of reality dropping away. The movement is towards calmness, clarity and compassion. With time in the arahanth path the insight becomes internalised and I think freedom from clinging comes effortlessly then.

With metta

[Deeele]

@Mat

Only complete cessation is freedom from the incessant arising and passing away of the aggregates- and they will no longer be clingable and will be seen as dukkha.

it seems nibbana-without-remainder cannot be attained without attaining Nibbana-with-remainder. Therefore, for me, is the Nibbana-with-remainder that seems to be far more important.

As for the incessant arising and passing away of the aggregates, this seems to be a requirement for Nibbana (the ending of the effluents) rather than the enemy of Nibbana.

And what is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents? There is the case where a monk remains focused on arising & falling away with reference to the five clung-to-aggregates: ‘Such is form, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is feeling, such its origination, such its passing away. Such is perception, such its origination, such its passing away. Such are fabrications, such their origination, such their passing away. Such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.’ This is the development of concentration that, when developed & pursued, leads to the ending of the effluents

AN 4.41

[quote=“Mat, post:20, topic:5289”]
He has no uncertainty or doubt that just stress, when arising, is arising; stress, when passing away, is passing away. In this, his knowledge is independent of others. It’s to this extent, Kaccayana, that there is right view. SN12.15
[/quote]

In my reading, this quote from SN 12.15 is referring to the arising & passing of ‘self-view’ (rather than to the arising & passing of the aggregates). The same phrase is found in SN 5.10, which appears to refer to the arising & passing of the view of ‘a being’.

Regards

[DaoYaoTao]

@Deeele

As for the incessant arising and passing away of the aggregates, this seems to be a requirement for Nibbana (the ending of the effluents) rather than the enemy of Nibbana.

@Mat

they [the aggregates] will no longer be clingable and will be seen as dukkha

Is it the case that, for the arahant, the aggregates remain, but their tilakkahana
nature is continually seen and they are no longer clung to? Can we all agree on that?

[Deeele]

@DaoYaoTao

Is it the case that, for the arahant, the aggregates remain, but their tilakkahana
nature is continually seen and they are no longer clung to? Can we all agree on that?

Dhp 277 to Dhp 279 seems to suggest this. Therefore, I will join the ‘agree’ team.

[Mat]

@Deeele

it seems nibbana-without-remainder cannot be attained without attaining Nibbana-with-remainder. Therefore, for me, is the Nibbana-with-remainder that seems to be far more important.

True. Two steps of the same path- one leads to the other.

@Deeele

As for the incessant arising and passing away of the aggregates, this seems to be a requirement for Nibbana (the ending of the effluents) rather than the enemy of Nibbana.

The incessant arising and passing away of the aggregates needs to be seen to realize the First noble truth of dukkha. This forms the groundwork for cessation of dukkha- the cessation of the aggregates (‘reverse’ DO), with the cessation of ignorance. The progress at this stage happens due to development of insight- it is all about seeing the truths about what we call reality and become completely disenchanted with what it turned out to be -just arising and passing, moment by moment. Seeing this for a lengthy period of time nibbida turns into dispassion and at one point the entire contraption of the 6 sense bases ceases. Just these ceasing of the incessant ‘noise’, the disturbance is bliss- like the ending of a real constant irritating noise fading away. What remains is nothingness- and arising and passing away has ceased. There is nothing arising and passing aware anymore- this is exquisite peace, the ending of everything. However to appreciate this one must have plumbed the depths of the insights offered by seeing the suffering caused by arising and passing away to fully comprehend (parinna) even the subtlest of dukkha.

@Deeele

In my reading, this quote from SN 12.15 is referring to the arising & passing of ‘self-view’ (rather than to the arising & passing of the aggregates). The same phrase is found in SN 5.10, which appears to refer to the arising & passing of the view of ‘a being’.

A view is a belief. It is content, not the container. The container is the aggregates. The content might say everything is permanent (nicca), satisfactory (sukha) and self (atta). The reality is seen by looking at the container.

“Why now do you assume ‘a being’?
Mara, is that your speculative view?
This is a heap of sheer formations:
Here no being is found.
.
“Just as, with an assemblage of parts,
The word ‘chariot’ is used,
So, when the aggregates exist,
There is the convention ‘a being.’
.
“It’s only suffering that comes to be,
Suffering that stands and falls away.
Nothing but suffering comes to be,
Nothing but suffering ceases.”

with metta

[Mat]

@DaoYaoTao

Is it the case that, for the arahant, the aggregates remain, but their tilakkahana
nature is continually seen and they are no longer clung to? Can we all agree on that?

Seeing the tilakkhana requires mindfulness, unification of the mind etc. It needs to be maintained with effort (viriya). Prior to attaining nibbana seeing tilakkhana is essential (to attain nibbana). After attaining nibbana it is not essential anymore, but they may continue to do it as a ‘pleasant abiding’, I remember reading in a sutta. They may equally practice jhana as a pleasant abiding. However all ignorance (the fetter of ignorance- the 10th fetter) is abandoned. They will no more see the world, even subconsciously as permanent, satisfactory or self, as the truths are internalised and maintained- ie there is no falling away from full enlightenment. So in the arahanth phala phase I doubt that they would naturally see arising and passing away all the time, or is required, as it requires one to do insight practice to view it.

with metta

[Brother_Joe]

@James2997

But , I don’t know if that is called Belief or just my thinking as such only !
Or both have the same meaning ?!

For me, if I think something is true, that is a belief. If I compare the statements:
‘I think this is true’
and
‘I believe this is true’
the second one seems to me to be a stronger statement. There is more conviction, less doubt.

@James2997

Is it not that Life is dukkha ? because whether one is an arahant or defiled ordinary human being or some other realms being , they are constantly in the
States of dukkha !? Whether , it is Psychologically or physically ! That is why life for most living Beings simply is dukkha !!!

The first noble truth is usually understood to mean ‘Life is suffering (dukkha)’, because people take it to mean ‘the five aggregates are suffering’, but because I believe the Buddha teaches clearly and I have not found evidence that he said ‘jīvitam dukkam’ (life is suffering), so I now avoid assuming things (the first noble truth) is as it seems.

If an Arahant were in a state of being, then, I believe, he would be suffering, as being is suffering. But since I do not believe the Arahant is in a state of being, he does not suffer. Thus the Buddha’s answer to Dona, in this case I think Thanissaro’s translation is better: Dona Sutta: With Dona.

I would say, life for all living beings is dukkha, because any type of happiness they experience, they cling to and for me the essence of the first noble truth/suffering/dukkha is clinging. Since Arahants have stopped clinging, I believe they have life without suffering.

If we believe the fist noble truth means life is suffering, I’m sure we could find many suttas to support that belief and there may actually be suttas that teach that, but I don’t accept them any more, as I found accepting them was suffering.

best wishes

[Brother_Joe]

magga means path and phala means fruit

[Brother_Joe]

@Deeele

In my reading, this quote from SN 12.15 is referring to the arising & passing of ‘self-view’ (rather than to the arising & passing of the aggregates). The same phrase is found in SN 5.10, which appears to refer to the arising & passing of the view of ‘a being’.

I certainly agree and think that is an important distinction, but for me ‘arising of self-view or self-image’ and ‘the arising of the view of a being’ are similes for ‘the five clung-to-aggregates’ or in plain English ‘ego’.

[Brother_Joe]

@Mat

It is due to ignorance the aggregates are seen as permanent (nicca), satisfactory (sukkha) and atta (self). No amount of meditative bliss or light will be mistaken for enlightenment when this is truly seen. Only complete cessation is freedom from the incessant arising and passing away of the aggregates- and they will no longer be clingable and will be seen as dukkha.

I would say:
It is due to ignorance the aggregates are seen as permanent (nicca), satisfactory (sukkha) and atta (soul). No amount of meditative bliss or light will be mistaken for enlightenment when this is truly seen. Only complete cessation is freedom from the incessant arising and passing away of the clung to aggregates - and they will no longer be clingable.

There will only be the five aggregates that rise and fall, like any conditioned thing, but the liberation of mind will be permanent and one will not need to have the conditioned (impermanent) and soulless (anattā) aggregates to stop, to realise full freedom.

I would not say: and will be seen as dukkha, because there would no longer be any personal dukkha to see. The five aggregates will be seen as they really are, impermanent and soulless and not clung to.

Best wishes

[DaoYaoTao]

@Mat

They will no more see the world, even subconsciously as permanent, satisfactory or self, … there is no falling away from full enlightenment

Exactly so. As I said, the tilakkahana nature is continually seen (not(permanent, satisfactory, self)) and they are no longer clung to.

But what exactly is the relationship between Saṅkhāra (mental formations) and the 4 other khandhas (aggregates)?

[Brother_Joe]

@Deeele

DaoYaoTao:
Is it the case that, for the arahant, the aggregates remain, but their tilakkahana
nature is continually seen and they are no longer clung to? Can we all agree on that?

Dhp 277 to Dhp 279 seems to suggest this. Therefore, I will join the ‘agree’ team.

I just did a search for ‘sabbe sankhaaraa aniccaa’ in the whole sutta pitaka.

The only other time I have found the teaching of the Three Characteristics like in the Dhammapada (the forth nikaya) is here: SuttaCentral.

[Mat]

@DaoYaoTao

tilakkahana nature is continually seen

Oh ok. I took this to mean continually doing insight practice, but I ‘see’ what you mean!

@DaoYaoTao

Is it the case that, for the arahant, the aggregates remain, but their tilakkahana
nature is continually seen and they are no longer clung to? Can we all agree on that?

Agreed!

The stream entrant ‘knows and sees’. The practice stages prior to that accept after contemplation of based on faith:

At Savatthi. "Monks, form is inconstant, changeable, alterable. Feeling… Perception… Fabrications… Consciousness is inconstant, changeable, alterable.

"One who has conviction & belief that these phenomena are this way is called a faith-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

"One who, after pondering with a modicum of discernment, has accepted that these phenomena are this way is called a Dhamma-follower: one who has entered the orderliness of rightness, entered the plane of people of integrity, transcended the plane of the run-of-the-mill. He is incapable of doing any deed by which he might be reborn in hell, in the animal womb, or in the realm of hungry shades. He is incapable of passing away until he has realized the fruit of stream-entry.

“One who knows and sees that these phenomena are this way is called a stream-enterer, steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for self-awakening.”

with metta

[Mat]

@DaoYaoTao

But what exactly is the relationship between Saṅkhāra (mental formations) and the 4 other khandhas (aggregates)?

The term sankhara has two main meanings:

1. Sankhara in the five aggregates would be volition- is kammically active.
2. Sankhara could mean ‘everything’ (‘sabbe sankhara aniccati’ ‘sabbe sankhara samatha’)

The idea that that which is fabricated (sankhata) -everything- is subject to dissolution (anicca) and therefore is the opposite of nibbana which is asankhata (unfabricated, unmade) is very important.

Short essay by Bhikkhu Bodhi on [Sankhara.]
(Anicca Vata Sankhara)

(‘Abhisankhara’ is used to denote subtle defilements in the suttas.)

As far as how the actually arise the most subtle element (rupa) arise first. Then vedana, sanna and finally sankhara. The latter is the most complex mental construct of the 5.

with metta

[Mat]

@Brother_Joe

I would not say: and will be seen as dukkha, because there would no longer be any personal dukkha to see. The five aggregates will be seen as they really are, impermanent and soulless and not clung to.

I see. What I mean was not that there was personal dukkha (emotions- vedana) but the dukkha which is a truth (sacca) about the nature of the aggregates (not that they are causing suffering secondary to clinging).

with metta

[Deeele]

@Brother_Joe

The only other time I have found the teaching of the Three Characteristics like in the Dhammapada (the forth nikaya) is here: SuttaCentral

It is also found in the SN 22.90.

When this was said, the elder bhikkhus said to the Venerable Channa: “Form, friend Channa, is impermanent, feeling is impermanent, perception is impermanent, volitional formations are impermanent, consciousness is impermanent. Form is nonself, feeling is nonself, perception is nonself, volitional formations are nonself, consciousness is nonself. All formations are impermanent; all phenomena are nonself.”

[Brother_Joe]

@Mat

The term sankhara has two main meanings:

1. Sankhara in the five aggregates would be volition- is kammically active.
2. Sankhara could mean ‘everything’ (‘sabbe sankhara aniccati’ ‘sabbe sankhara samatha’)

Hi Mat

Thanks for that suggestion, claim or belief that you express as truth (against the advice of the Buddha). The Buddha seems to have taught us to examine any claim someone makes about his teaching against his words in Dhamma (Sutta) and Vinaya.

It seems to be that suggesting that terms the Buddha used have many meanings (which is different to suggesting terms had different meanings outside the Buddha’s teaching at the time of the Buddha) is in effect promoting the idea that the Buddha taught a secret teaching that requires someone other than the Buddha to interpret for us, i.e. a commentator. I don’t accept that anymore, because, I believe I find enough clear definitions from the Buddha in the EBTs to understand his teaching and those definitions are not applied by the commentators I previously relied on. Starting with the First Noble Truth is ‘life with clinging is suffering’. I see the First Noble Truth as the Buddha’s definition of suffering.

The second meaning of saṅkhāra that you mentioned would be based in the doctrine of three universal (for all conditioned things) characteristics, which I believe is misapplied (only the first and third for the Five Aggregates without clinging), due to the wrong understanding of the First Noble Truth (as the Five Aggregates -life- is suffering). For me, the three characteristics should only be applied to the Five Clung-to Aggregates and two to all Aggregates.

best wishes

[Brother_Joe]

@Deeele

It is also found in the SN 22.90.

When this was said, the elder bhikkhus said to the Venerable Channa: “Form, friend Channa, is impermanent, feeling is impermanent, perception is impermanent, volitional formations are impermanent, consciousness is impermanent. Form is nonself, feeling is nonself, perception is nonself, volitional formations are nonself, consciousness is nonself. All formations are impermanent; all phenomena are nonself.”

thanks for that and that is a quote that supports my idea that the two characteristics only should be applied to the Five Aggregates (that are not affected by clinging, or are not clung to, and thus would not be suffering).

best wishes