So what is the difference between the consciousness aggregate and the consciousness aggregate subject to clinging? Please don’t say one is clung to whilst the other is not clung to.
[quote=“DaoYaoTao, post:62, topic:5289”]
So what is the difference between the consciousness aggregate and the consciousness aggregate subject to clinging? Please don’t say one is clung to whilst the other is not clung to.[/quote]
I say one is a polluted/defiled consciousness & the other is not. It is like the different between pure water & salty water. Pure water can be drunk healthily & the other water is not really drinkable.
If a monk abandons passion for the property of consciousness, then owing to the abandonment of passion, the support is cut off, and there is no landing of consciousness. Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released. Owing to its release, it is steady. Owing to its steadiness, it is contented. Owing to its contentment, it is not agitated. SN 22.53
Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is defiled by incoming defilements. Luminous, monks, is the mind. And it is freed from incoming defilements. AN 1.49
Imagine, Brahman, a bowl of water mixed with lac, turmeric, dark green or crimson dye. If a man with good eyesight were to look at the reflection of his own face in it, he would not know or see it as it really was. In the same way, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart possessed and overwhelmed by sensual desire… then he cannot know or see, as it really is, what is to his own profit, to the profit of others, to the profit of both. Then even sacred words he has long studied are not clear to him, not to mention those he has not studied… But, Brahman, when a man dwells with his heart not possessed, not overwhelmed by sensual desire… ill-will… sloth-and-torpor… worry-and-flurry… doubt-and-wavering… [like the five bowls of water not as previously described, but ‘clear, limpid, pellucid, set in the open’]… then he knows and sees, as it really is, what is to his own profit, to the profit of others, to the profit of both himself and others. SN 46.55
Kind regards 
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yes and it is mirrored in the language, we add ‘subject to clinging’ to show difference, but they are related
I agree and with the quotes.
I would just say, that suppose:
- there is one glass of pure drinking water
and someone added a heap of salt to it then, - there is one glass of salty water
The water is not the same, but it is related, it has some common features and some uncommon ones.
Hi , If I may ,
would like to ask you ,
-
What it meant by
Landing of consciousness ? -
Other than arahant , are
ordinary defiled people ,
at all times aggregates
remain in the state
of clung - to ?
Without exception ?
Thanks .
Hi James,
re 1.: as I understand the Buddha’s teaching there are only six types of consciousness, all dependent on the contact of a sense organ and sense object, thus:
- eye and sight → seeing
- ear and sound → hearing
- nose and scent → smelling
- tongue and taste → tasting
- body and touch → touching/feeling
- brain and mental object → thinking
so when one of these is associated with clinging, it would form a self-view or self-image via an ‘I am (not)…’ identity statement, that is what I understand it to be. Maybe we could say, the consciousness aggregate, which is naturally luminous and free, comes down (lands) into a world/suffering/ego/identity.
re 2.: as I understand the Buddha’s teaching, there are three basic stages:
- worldling - always clinging to one of the five aggregates
- trainer - sometimes clinging… and sometimes not
- accomplished one (Arahant) - no longer clinging…
best wishes
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You are going off tack now. Are you saying there are (5 aggregates) and (5 aggregates that are clung to) and that they are different? Or is it simply the case that THE five aggregates are EITHER clung to OR are not clung to?
But above you agreed with the quote from SN22.53 which says “Consciousness, thus not having landed, not increasing, not concocting, is released.”
That is clearly not one of the six types of consciousness.
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@"Brother_Joe
First of all thank you
For answering my questions .
brain and mental object -> thinking
so when one of these is associated with clinging, it would form a self-view or self-image via an ‘I am (not)…’ identity statement, that is what I understand it to be. Maybe we could say, the consciousness aggregate, which is naturally luminous and free, comes down (lands) into a world/suffering/ego/identity.
[/quote]
Coming back to your answer :
How do you know the
6th sense organ is " brain " ?
Some Sutta mentioned it as mind.
What do you mean by " always " ?
24/7/365 all times clinging ?
Where does then the
consciousness come from ?
If they are naturally free !
Yes.
Yes. The five aggregates are either clung to or not clung to. However, when they are clung to, they are polluted & stressed aggregates because clinging itself is stressful and is also the product of craving. Therefore, clung to aggregates are stressed by clinging & polluted by craving.
When one abides inflamed by lust, fettered, infatuated, contemplating gratification, then the five aggregates affected by clinging are built up for oneself in the future; and one’s craving—which brings renewal of being, is accompanied by delight and lust, and delights in this and that—increases. One’s bodily and mental troubles increase, one’s bodily and mental torments increase, one’s bodily and mental fevers increase, and one experiences bodily and mental suffering.
MN 149
Kind regards 
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[quote="Deeele
Therefore, clung to aggregates are stressed by clinging & polluted by craving.
[/quote]
Hi Deeele ,
What do you think ,
which occurs first ?
clinging first or craving first ?
Thanks .
[quote=“James2997, post:72, topic:5289”]
which occurs first ? clinging first or craving first ?[/quote]
Feeling is the condition of craving; craving is the condition of clinging; and clinging is the condition of the process of becoming.’ Such is the origin of this entire mass of suffering. SN 12.12
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So you agree to that, but you also agree to this false statement:
there are P(5 aggregates) and Q(5 aggregates that are clung to) and that they are different
But there is no difference between P and not clinging to Q. In other words there are only five aggregates that are either clung to or not clung to. Which you have actually agreed to!
So the five aggregates in each (respective) photo below are the same?
I didn’t say the five aggregates are the same. I said:
You have agreed to that:
Can you provide link to the Sutta that talks about “three doors to nibbanna”?
Hmm…it looks like a commentarial classification.
With metta
Therefore it is evil! 
“Three [alternative] gateways to liberation [vimokkha-mukha], which lead to the outlet from the world.”
— Vis. Ch. xxi/pp. 657 ff., quoting Ps. Vimokkhakathaa/vol. ii, 58
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MN 43 is related. However, only one of the four types of liberation (suññatā cetovimutti) appears to be Nibbana.
appamāṇā cetovimutti, ākiñcaññā cetovimutti, suññatā cetovimutti, animittā cetovimutti
The immeasurable awareness-release, the nothingness awareness-release, the emptiness awareness-release, the theme-less-awareness-release… the unprovoked awareness-release is declared the foremost. And this unprovoked awareness-release is empty of passion, empty of aversion, empty of delusion.
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There are still many more ways to achieve Nibbana besides three mentioned in the essay. For example: Kayagatasati, Samatho/Vipassana and any of the 7 factors for Enlightenment (sattannaṃ bodhipakkhiyanaṃ dhammanaṃ) as mention in SN43.1 to SN43.12.
By the way, there is still Akuppa cetovimutti which is void of lust, hate, and delution that is better and higher than Animitta, Appanihita, and Sunnyata cetovimutti/cetosamādhi. MN43
"…Of all the kinds of immeasurable deliverance of mind, the unshakeable deliverance of mind (Akuppa cetovimutti) is pronounced the best…
…Of all the kinds of deliverance of mind through nothingness, the unshakeable deliverance of mind is pronounced the best…
…Of all the kinds of signless deliverance of mind, the unshakeable deliverance of mind is pronounced the best…" MN43
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