While discussing the correct translation for sattakkhattuparama in another thread, I was surprised to learn that Bhante Sujato hadn’t heard of Ajahn Brahm’s version of ‘seven lifetimes including this one’. His argument, as I remember, is that age starts with one for Indians because a baby’s age starts from the time it’s in the womb. A young man of 19 years of age (with some additional months presumably) can ordain as a bhikkhu. Therefore, 7 births of a sotapanna includes the current birth. It’s not unique to Indian culture because traditional Chinese 周岁 treats a baby as one year old as soon as it pops out from the womb, so I was not surprised.
So, where can we find the source that support Ajahn Brahm’s version of 7 births? I assume it’s obviously not in the EBT, otherwise Bhante Sujato would have agreed with Ajahn Brahm’s interpretation.
Those who fathom the noble truths
Ye ariyasaccāni vibhāvayanti,
taught by the one of deep wisdom,
Gambhīrapaññena sudesitāni;
do not take an eighth life,
Kiñcāpi te honti bhusaṁ pamattā,
even if they are hugely negligent.
Na te bhavaṁ aṭṭhamamādiyanti;
ādiyanti = they take. It would be very strange if their current birth were one they “take.” Surely this one is already taken. This, of course, also parallels the usage of the number one in “Once Returner” (Sakadāgāmin) who takes on one more life.
I don’t see how counting past years of age (“his first year”) has any bearing on how to count future births (“his first rebirth”).
Not sure what “another thread” refers to, so this may already have been discussed there, in which case sorry!
But I think it is possible that the number 7 does not indicate a strict amount of lives. It may be used here to mean something like “very little”, similar to how it seems to be used in the Satipatthana Suttas:
Anyone who develops these four kinds of mindfulness meditation in this way for seven years can expect one of two results: The emphasis is on “develop in this way” (evaṁ bhāveyya), that is, with the full practice including deep absorption as the culmination of the path as a whole.enlightenment in this very life, or if there’s residue left behind, non-return.
Let alone seven years, .anyone who develops these four kinds of mindfulness meditation in this way for six years …five years …four years …three years …two years …one year …seven months …six months …five months …four months …three months …two months …one month …a fortnight …Let alone a fortnight, anyone who develops these four kinds of mindfulness meditation in this way for seven days can expect one of two results:enlightenment in this very life, or if there’s residue left behind, non-return. (MN10)
Greeting, Bhante Sunyo. It’s a thread on typoes and mistakes. Not much was discussed there. I was made aware that my understanding is probably incorrect.
Indians were quite liberal with their numbers. I just never thought that it may apply to this case too.
Anyway, one more or less lifetime doesn’t seem a lot compared to the whole wandering in samsara, but it is still a bit too much when viewed from the perspective of present lifetime.
Anyone has any idea where Ajahn Brahm got his idea of ‘seven lifetimes including the current one’?
Bhante Ariyadhammika, my teacher at least don’t think that the liberalness with numbers applies in this particular case. Ratana sutta is quite clear on no 8th life.
And there’s another sutta which classify 3 types of stream winners, AN3.87
As far as I remember, the reasoning was that ancient Indians always counted like this. For example, when we receive seven day allowables, the day they’re given already counts as one day. Or when we take seven day leave during vassa, the day we leave is already one day.
I think this case is different given that there are stream winners with one more life in the future as a human as the last category. From that, it can be seen that one more lifetime left doesn’t mean including this life, thus seven more lifetimes also should not include this life.
I wasn’t saying that either idea was right or wrong in the corrections thread. Just that, as I remember it, Bhante Sujato thought the Ratana sutta ‘ aṭṭhamamādiyanti ’ meant take 7 more lives, but not an eighth. They’ve already taken this one. I’m pretty certain Ajahn Brahm’s reference was also the Ratana Sutta. Alas!
Ayyā @Sela ? (If that’s you) I am curious what you concluded?
I find Ven Vimalanyani’s argument quite compelling.
That’s very logical. You’re smarter than me. With this reasoning and Ayya @vimalanyani answer, the seven lifetimes including the current one sounds more compelling to me.
I know, Venerable. That’s why I put ‘probably’ incorrect in my statement.
With the ending of three fetters they have at most seven rebirths.
So tiṇṇaṁ saṁyojanānaṁ parikkhayā sattakkhattuparamo hoti.
They will transmigrate at most seven times among gods and humans and then make an end of suffering .
Sattakkhattuparamaṁ deve ca manusse ca sandhāvitvā saṁsaritvā dukkhassantaṁ karoti .
With the ending of three fetters, they go from family to family. They will transmigrate between two or three families and then make an end of suffering.
So tiṇṇaṁ saṁyojanānaṁ parikkhayā kolaṅkolo hoti, dve vā tīṇi vā kulāni sandhāvitvā saṁsaritvā dukkhassantaṁ karot i .
With the ending of three fetters, they’re a one-seeder. They will be reborn just one time in a human existence, then make an end of suffer i ng.
So tiṇṇaṁ saṁyojanānaṁ parikkhayā ekabījī hoti, ekaṁyeva mānusakaṁ bhavaṁ nibbattetvā dukkhassantaṁ kar oti.
AN3.87
If we accept the last one as one more rebirth as it’s clearly defined, to suddenly change the criterion when to start counting when it goes to 7 times in the same sutta doesn’t seem reasonable.
That’s a reasonable argument but it feels like a different situation as, once again, these have a definitive starting point, which transmigration does not have.
Thanks for that quote @NgXinZhao That seems pretty unambiguous to me. The verb there is sandhāvitvā saṁsaritvā which doesn’t mean “having so many lives” but rather “transmigrating so many times.” It’s not counting a span of time (e.g. 7 days) but rather a number of discreet events (sattakkhattu = 7 times)
