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What is the meaning of Akāliko?


#21

:joy::rofl::sweat_smile::rofl::joy: + rolling on floor holding belly, laughing till it hurts :laughing:


#22

It is clearly said in the suttas that "When a person is overcome and overwhelmed by greed/hatred/delusion, he intends to hurt themselves, hurt others, and hurt both. They experience mental pain and sadness. When greed/hatred/delusion has been given up, they don’t intend to hurt themselves, hurt others, and hurt both. They don’t experience mental pain and sadness. This is how the teaching is realizable in this very life (sanditthiko), immediately effective (akaliko), inviting inspection (ehipassiko), relevant(opaneyikko) , so that sensible people can know it for themselves (paccattaṃ veditabbo).


#23

So where do you find the description of " Teaching is not to do with time, not subject to time" for which overwhelming members voted in Dhamma Wheel?


#24

Basically, it’s C. (I meant “A”).

See: “No Delay” - Bhante Sujato & “Akalika in the Buddhist Canon” - Johannes Bronkhorst


#25

So you accepted the definition of Akalika as deathless or Nibbana?
Well, I like that argument.
However, we use Kalika in Sri Lanka in the sense of time.
Kala means the time. It is nothing to do with death.
If a young person dies monks call it Akalika Marana. Which means he died before completing the accepted t life expectancy.
Perhaps Bhante @sujato clarify this but now I can see the whole Western thought go in that direction.
Thank you for the link anyway. Many of us did not have any clue about what is meant in no 3 in my OP including myself. I just copied it from some discussions without knowing the meaning.
:smile:


#26

Sorry, I meant “A”. :sweat_smile:


#27

Bugger!
you made my day.
:rofl:
But how that relates to 1?
So what is the meaning of no 3?


#28

Bhante @sujato now I think like this.
Sanditthiko (here and now) Akaliko (Nibbana) = Nibbana here and now.
So I have to add another option to my OP.
ie: 4 Nibbana
Because no 1 is incorrect as it gives the meaning of two words together.


#29

A bus ticket is immediately effective. Once.

However, the suttas have been immediately effective for 2500 years. Bhante Sujato knows that readers today will understand the timelessness of the suttas. Therefore he has elegantly simplified the full meaning of akālika by omitting the “timeless and immediately effective” and just saying “immediately effective”.

New Concise Pali English Dictionary
akālika
mfn.not dependent on time; not limited to a particular time; immediate, immediately effective (see kālika )


#30

Akaliko , refers to the Dhamma.
The Dhamma refers to paticcasamupada.SN12.1

The Paticcasamupada/dependent origination principle is ‘with this, this is’.
And so akaliko usually translated as ‘timeless’, means ’ not delayed in time’s, or ‘simultaneously arisen’.

In other words, ‘with this, this is… simultaneously arisen, there is no delay in time, there is no ‘time process’.
‘With avijja, dukkha is’ or ’ with Sankhara, sankhata dhamma is’


#31

Bhante @Noahsark ,

Akaliko , refers to the Dhamma.
The Dhamma refers to paticcasamupada.SN12.1

Context from the suttas shows that the Dhamma referes to entirety of the Buddha’s teachings, but more specifically to the their goal: the giving up greed, hate, and delusion. And the suttas clearly state in what sense this dhamma (AN 3.54), nibbāna (AN 3.55), nijjarā (AN 3.74), brahmacariya (Snp 3.7) is akālika: it is attainable in this life, not after death (AN 3.53).

It seems to me that this has nothing to do with the principle of idappaccayatā.


#32

Hello Piotr,
In AN3.54
“A greedy person, overcome by greed, intends to hurt themselves, hurt others, and hurt both. They experience mental pain and sadness.”

When greed is, suffering is. To the extent greed is,to that extent suffering is, both arise simultaneously, one being the determinant for the other.
This is the Dhamma, the teaching and the principle, which is the understanding of the goal/nibbana, and understanding this principle repeatedly,one develops the understanding which is the development of Nibbana.

When there is no understanding of the Dhamma principle, there is no understanding of the goal/Nibbana; but Understanding this Dhamma principle,one understands the goal.

AN3.55
“When, brahmin, one experiences the remainderless destruction of lust, the remainderless destruction of hatred, and the remainderless destruction of delusion, it is in this way, too, that nibbāna is directly visible, immediate, inviting one to come and see, applicable, to be personally by the wise”

When there is no greed ,hate or delusion,there is no suffering or there is Nibbana

In AN3.74

“when, Abhaya, a mendicant is ethical, restrained in the code of conduct, with good behavior and supporters. Seeing danger in the slightest fault, they keep the rules they’ve undertaken.
They don’t perform any new deeds, and old deeds are eliminated by experiencing their results little by little.”

When there is keeping of virtue, there is simultaneously the NOT breaking of virtue.
When There is non-performance of any new deeds, only the results of old deeds burn away.

The other interesting point I find here is " the non-performance of new deeds", I believe the meaning is that one no longer “keeps the percepts” because there is the knowledge that simple by not doing anything unwholesome all the precepts( and beyond) are automatically kept.

Snp3.7
“The brahmacariya…Wherein the going forth is not fruitless,
For one who trains themselves diligently”

When there is diligence in brahmacariya, there is simultaneously great fruit and benefit. Even though one may not see that immediately.
Practising non-greed is of great fruit also,even if it is not seen immediately.


#33

Why not?
If it is not seen immediately it is not Akalika.


#34

It might not be seen immediately, but it is immediate.
There is an immediate result,but one might take time to recognise it, and then realise, that “it was ‘immediate’”.


#35

The following sutta helped me get a handle on kāli and its derivatives:


#36

It is interesting to note that sensual pleasures are Kalika.
What does that mean?
If I eat a mango , I experience it right here and now.

===========
For the Buddha has said that sensual pleasures take time, with much suffering and distress, and they’re all the more full of drawbacks.
Kālikā hi, āvuso, kāmā vuttā bhagavatā bahudukkhā bahupāyāsā;


#37

Now I think Kalika menas anicca (impermananent) and Akalika means Nicca (permananent).
In other words Kalika means subject to entrophy.


#38

So the teaching is permanent. I think the dhamma says everything is anicca?


#39

I think it is referring to Nibbana not teaching.


#40

We take refuge in the dhamma, which leads to nibbana. Nibbana can’t be captured under ‘permanent’ as time doesn’t apply.