What is the meaning of lokāyata?

Any thoughts, anyone?

:pray: Bhante @Brahmali,

I wasn’t going to post during the rains, but there has to be an exception to every rule! :smiley: Because it seems nobody has yet jumped to the defense of ‘cosmology’ (edit: or ‘cosmological theories’, which is also fine with me).

At some point I had similar doubts about ‘cosmology’, even considering ‘metaphysics’ for my own translations. But in AN9.38, Lokāyatika Brahmins are asking questions about the world’s infinitude, which certainly does refer to the universe/cosmos.

the questions [about the “all”] at SN12.48 do not, to my mind, have much to do with cosmology in the modern sense

But they are asked by Brahmins, so the question is, were they about cosmology to them? I think so. In the Upanishads sarva ‘all/whole’ often refers to the universe. Olivelle even regularly translates just the noun sarva (without loka) as “whole world”. Brahman, the source and ground of the universe, is also called the All/Whole, and the Ātman becomes ‘all/whole’ after the brahmin knows this. Such a concept may be what’s referred to in the sutta with “is all a unity?” For another cosmology, see BU3.9: “The six are fire and earth, wind and the intermediate region, sun and sky—for these six are this all/whole.” This might be a form of “is all a plurality?”

Not that it matters for the translation of lokāyata, but I think that to Brahmins the question “does the All (or ‘Whole’) exist?” would effectively be “does the Brahman/Ātman exist?” To ask “does the Whole not exist?” would be to question this Upanisadic monism, similar to asking whether all is a plurality. That is, I don’t read it as a denial of existence in general (“does all not exist?”) but specifically of a monistic universal Whole (sarva). See Gonda’s ‘Reflections on Sarva- In Vedic Texts’ for this “whole/entire” meaning of sarva.

So it seems very likely that these questions are specifically about the universe, not about philosophy or metaphysics more generally. Of course, to the Buddha the “all” is not literally the whole universe, but then he’s not the one asking these questions! Nor does he answer them, just indicating that they are old. We shouldn’t read the Buddha’s redefinition of sabba in SN35.85 back into these questions.

In the modern era “cosmology” is outrightly misleading.

It seems fine to me, as long as we are talking about the philosophy and don’t confuse it with the natural science, which the context doesn’t really allow for anyway. But a lot of that science borders on philosophy, anyway, with multiple universes and stuff. (Is all a plurality?…) Also, considering that cosmology as a philosophy is “a metaphysical study into the origin and nature of the universe” (Wiktionary), I don’t think ‘metaphysics’ or ‘philosophy’ would be an improvement over ‘cosmology’. It would broaden the term too much and make it even more misleading, potentially.

Second, we have the argument used by the Buddha that lokāyata is not compatible with a proper understanding of the Dhamma. Again, it seems to me that philosophical speculation is more to the point than cosmology.

It seems to me the other way around. I agree with josephzizys that Buddhism also is a kind of philosophy. And prior to right view there will always be some speculation involved in it too. And depending on how we look at the notoriously vague term ‘metaphysics’, Buddhism arguably engages in it too, although initially not with the goal to set down first principles but to understand reality as fundamentally dukkha and anatta.

I say this not to argue exactly what counts as philosophy or metaphysics but because you say, “I don’t want my translation to be understood only by people with an appreciation of modern philosophy.” But if you would translate, “you shouldn’t teach philosophy/metaphysics”, that may well be misunderstood to discourage things which are fundamental to Buddhism, or at least to certain branches. Especially if you’d use ‘philosophy’, I would consider myself to have committed lots of dukkatas! At least ‘cosmology’ isn’t likely to have that problem.

I think the question to be answered is instead, why are the monks who engage in lokāyata accused of acting like householders? I don’t see how this would be solved by translating it as ‘philosophy’ or ‘metaphysics’ or alike. Perhaps it’s just a way of saying they aren’t acting like monks should. We find the exact same complaint all the time, after all. So it seems to simply be a trope that’s repeated here, perhaps even without too much thought as to the context. (Or perhaps it was, because many Brahmins were also householders.)

It sounds like the people are accusing the monks amongst themselves, but the purpose of the text is of course for monastics to reflect on it. And being called a householder would be shameful for them. So saying that teaching lokāyata is householder’s business is primarily for the sake of instilling such shame in them, not for the sake of explaining what householders would really have been spending their time on. I think.

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I believe that the term is specific to this particular cultural and historical context, and has no immediate translation. This is because, similar to words like ‘metaphysics’ with a complex history and ongoing negotiation of meaning happening in the Western tradition, ‘lokāyata’ referred to something specific within the Indian tradition.

It seems to have meant not just the theories, but also the theorizing and the tradition of debating. Forgive me for my laziness and not quoting sources, but if I recall correctly, Jayatilleke (and perhaps others) discuss how lokāyata was actually a matter that certain brahmins would study and apply in debates.

I think that “cosmological speculation” is quite good, but it also might be reading a Buddhist critique into the word. For this reason, something closer to “cosmological theory” or plain “cosmology” might be better.

To elaborate: ‘bhava’ is impermanent in Buddhism, but that doesn’t mean we should translate the word as ‘impermanent existence.’ That would be reading a Buddhist response to a larger cultural concept into the word itself. Likewise, Buddhists criticized lokāyata—a specific cultural concept within philosophy—as something negative. But that doesn’t mean the word itself has that meaning.

This is, I think, why it makes sense to have a rule against it. A rule against “metaphysics” would just be strange. And, as others have mentioned, the suttas do discuss metaphysics, cosmology, etc. But if ‘lokāyata’ refers to a specific cultural study with understood themes, activities, debates, curriculum, and an evolving picture of what that looked like, then it makes sense to make a rule against it. Such as the discussions of the “first beginning,” Brahman/Ātman, etc.

Similar, perhaps, to banning particular styles of ritual: not the same as banning all ritual, but a specific type of behavior that is culturally specific and yet has parallels across cultures. Philosophical and debate cultures are not unique to India, of course, but there are nuances.

I think this is relevant for translation because it means that we shouldn’t expect there to be a good, one-to-one correspondence. This word has a particularly nuanced meaning, and that’s just how it is. So something that approximates the idea is sufficient, perhaps with a footnote to discuss instances of the word in relevant Indian literature and some details on what it specifically looked like.

Agreed.

Yes, and I think we should remember that the separation between “science” and “philosophy” is a relatively recent one that is not without its issues. Certainly Ancient Greek philosophy included ‘natural philosophy.’ Philosophy was about gaining an understanding of the world for one reason or another, as is Buddhism. It just so happens that in Buddhism the specifics of natural philosophy are not so relevant or emphasized. But still, Buddhism has a worldview about how the natural world operates. For example, that there are natural disasters and impermanence in the physical world, and the map of different realms of existence, etc.

This seems likely to me as well. A stock pericope is being used to make a rule. I don’t think we should read too much into it, not that we shouldn’t read carefully and closely.

All the best. :pray:

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Sure! But this is pretty much interchangeable with “cosmological theories”. So, either one, I would say.

Yes, there is clearly a cosmological dimension. The problem is that it is quite different from what we now call cosmology, which is about direct observation of the universe. So I think rendering it as cosmology is somewhat misleading. “Cosmological speculation/theorising”, however, seems right.

Right. But it also concerns whether this all exist or does not exist, even if this relates to the existence of Brahman, which I think you are right about. This is where we are moving into the area of ontology/metaphysics. So it is cosmology with a metaphysical bent, or metaphysics with a cosmology bent, as I have argued above.

Yes, science and philosophy are never entirely separable. This is true here. But in the modern era it is the science part that tends to predominate and lead. Philosophy obviously needs to be constrained by scientific findings.

I find this idea dangerous. Philosophy in the modern sense is the art of thinking. True insight only happens when the thinking stops. I would argue that, from a Buddhist point of view, the Dhamma is a description of the way things are (right view). To call this metaphysics or philosophy may lead to the Dhamma being seen as no more than one position among many.

My current translation is “you should not study/teach cosmological theories”.

Perhaps …

Yes. but this is always true of language. A word like cosmology has a very different meaning now compared to what it had a few hundred years ago, when it was just a branch of philosophy, as you point out. The question becomes what is the nearest modern equivalent. My sense is that people tend to think in roughly the same ways even across vast spans of time, because we are all driven by the sense of self and defilements. And so it should be possible to find approximate equivalents for most, or even all, of these ancients terms.

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Hi Ajahn :pray:, One more reply to show my agreement.

It seems you are mostly concerned with how the translation are most likely to be interpreted nowadays, if read somewhat devoid of the wider textual and historical context. I think that is a good approach especially for the Vinaya, where such context is largely missing. This translation is good for that purpose.

As I said, I didn’t intend to argue what exactly is philosophy or metaphysics. I was just indicating that some Buddhists may (or will) interpret “you shouldn’t teach philosophy/metaphysics” differently than you. With such a translation I think you would’ve ran into the exact problem you’re trying to prevent. Ethics is also considered a part of philosophy, for example, and to say that thoughts can never reach reality isn’t alien to contemporary philosophy either. Not all philosophers are rationalists. So I’m happy you didn’t decide on such a translation!

Much metta and thanks for your translation efforts. :slight_smile:

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Okay just to add a few points here.

  • Words are not cyphers; they have meanings. Lokāyata means, “the extent of the cosmos”, where loka means “visible world” and probably originally “the heavens” i.e. the constellations, etc.
  • It’s not just a branch of learning, but a craft for livelihood, along with geomancy, etc. (Ud 3.9:2.22, DN 1:1.25.2). This means it was something people paid for, like people pay astrologers today, hence why it was inappropriate for monastics.
  • Agreeing with Sunyo, “all exists” etc. is precisely a statement about the cosmos.

But it’s not just any old statement about the cosmos, it’s a direct callback to the Rig Veda. “All exists”, says the Buddha to a brahmin, is the “oldest cosmology”.

The literal oldest cosmology in Indic tradition is Rig Veda 10.129, which begins: “The nonexistent did not exist, nor did the existent exist at that time.” It goes on to speak of the “all”: “Darkness existed, hidden by darkness, in the beginning. All this (sarvaam ā idam) was a signless ocean”. (Jamison/Brereton).

So the idea is about myths of creation, how the world came to be the way it is, how the universe is structured, and so on. Such knowledge is esoteric, and hence valuable for people who are willing to pay to ensure that their choices agree with the plan of the cosmos.

For this, we normally use phrases like “Hindu cosmology” or “Buddhist cosmology”, etc. It’s good enough for Wikipedia:

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I interpret lokaayata in a simple way, as a view of the universe or an approach to understanding the universe.

According to Gonda and Olivelle the “All” could be referring to Brahman/Ātman

the Whole: the exact sense of the term sarva, here translated as “the Whole,” has been much debated. As Gonda 1955a has shown, the term in its earliest usage did not mean “everything” but carried the sense of completeness, wholeness, and health. It is, thus, opposed to what is partial, broken, sick, or hurt. In the Upanisads the term is used to indicate not all things in the universe but a higher-level totality that encompasses the universe. Gonda (1955a, 64) observes that the phrase sarvam khalv idam brahma at CU 3.14.1 does not mean “‘Brahman is everything here,’ but ‘Brahman is the complete here, this whole (one),’ or: ‘Brahman is what is the whole, complete here, is what is entire, perfect, with no part lacking, what is safe and well etc., i.e. Completeness, Totality, the All seen as the Whole.’” Unless the context dictates otherwise, I translate sarvam throughout as “the Whole” and the phrase idam sarvam as “this whole world.” To the English reader the term “whole” should evoke the senses of totality and completeness (all there is), as well as perfection, soundness, and wholesomeness.

The Early Upanishads: Annotated Text and Translation, Page 493

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Wouldn’t that be option 4 rather than option 1 Bhante?

  1. Existence

  2. Non-Existence

  3. Both Existence and Non-Existence

  4. Neither Existence nor Non-Existence

3 was the Jain view. 2 was the Annihilationists. If 4 was the Vedas then 1 must be some other Eternalist view.

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I’ve had a go at translating the commentary to SN 12:48:

Sophist: Having practiced the art of sophistry in natural philosophy. Oldest natural philosophy: The first natural philosophy. Natural philosophy: Of the world it is extensive, extensive for foolish and ordinary people of the world. Regarded as grand and deep, but this doctrine is of a limited nature. Unity: A single nature. Here he enquires about this permanent nature. Plurality: A different nature from the former nature, as with gods and humans etc who, first having been, afterwards do not exist. This enquiry then is in connection with annihilation. Thus, in this case “Everyone Exists, All is Oneness” both these two should be known as Eternalist views whilst “Everyone does not Exist, Everyone is Diverse” both these two are Annihilationist Views.

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