Hmmm…non-delusional? Is there a sutta who literally says so?
My feeling is that Jhana is not without any sense of a self abiding in jhana, a sense of a wittness of ‘there is nothing’, 'a wittness of endless vinnana, a wittness of all these states.
My idea is that in jhana mind is still perceived as a Me and there is still a sense of personal or subjective existence or experience in jhana.
I believe, this is also why all jhana are not beyond samsara and the world.
I also belief that the fact that jhana is connected to bright kamma indicates that there is also still avijja, because karmically active formations rely on avijja as condition.
If jhana would really be non-delusional, i think, that also means that if one would die in jhana, one is liberated but i do not think it works this way.
Yes, there is still a remnant of delusion, but the hindrances, which bias the mind, are gone, and so the supports of delusion have been removed. The mind is clear, bright, and powerful, and ready see nonself:
I say that delusion (avijjā) is fueled by something, it’s not unfueled.
And what is the fuel for delusion?
You should say: ‘The five hindrances.’ (AN 10.61)
Yes, that is interesting. What do you think of this? In any jhana there is still the impression of a me who is in jhana, or like MN1 says: 17. “He perceives the base of nothingness (and also the others, Green) as the base of nothingness”…
Greetings, and thank you for this interesting discussion. I humbly offer a slightly different perspective or way of framing things, that may perhaps assist in bridging the gap a little. Obviously I am no scholar and, as such, won’t be using many technical terms, but am working from the basis of the principle inherent in Iddapaccayata - Dependent Conditionality or Dependent Arising.
I actually interpret this in the same way as Ajahn Brahmali - if the (not yet enlightened) person enjoys Jhana and clings to it, THEN they are reborn in the Brahma realms. But, rather than it being about their not having lost the ability by the time of their death, it is about the state of their consciousness and grasping at the time of death. This is in line with one of my favourite suttas Iti 73
'Those beings who reach the form realm
And those established in the formless,
If they do not know cessation
Come back to renewal of being.
Those who fully understand forms
Without getting stuck in the formless,
Are released into cessation
And leave Death far behind them.
After-all part of understanding conditionality (dispelling Delusion), is also understanding the conditionality of Jhana, which leads to not grasping it and most importantly not being trapped/reborn in those realms. This is why an arahant would not be reborn there, nor in any realm what-so-ever, whether they regularly practice Jhana or not. Ajahn Brahmali addressed this here in the original thread;
However,
For me this sutta is a demonstration of iddapaccayata, talking about the vital conditions to cause a sequence of mental states from non-regret to Nibbana.
However, I see this from another perspective… Another way of framing it is that there is a higher degree of Right View in conjunction with Samadhi. That both RV and Samadhi are empowered by each other as a feed back loop, gaining in penetrative ability until the final breakthrough where Ignorance is completely and irreversibly destroyed.
Note - I am not disputing that Jhana / samadhi is a necessary condition, just that it is not sufficient (that it will automatically lead to Awakening on its own) - I don’t hold the view that there is some magical power housed within a certain ‘level’ of samadhi - Jhana is just Jhana and Arupa is just Arupa… The crucial thing is that it needs to be in conjunction with Right View.
This is where I get a bit lost in these arguments… It is the assertion that stream-enterers have perfected Right View that I find perplexing. There is ample evidence, as cited, that ordinary people can attain Jhana, and arupas etc. But without Right View they are still subject to Delusion. To say nothing of the fact that there are still defilements - even if temporarily absent while in Jhana.
From suttas cited, it is clear that perfecting Right View requires Jhana as condition. But if all of this is satisfied at stream entry then how is it differentiated from Awakening? I have always understood that stream-entry involves abandonment of certain defilements, and a significant step towards Right View, as in having understood Non-Self - at least in a conceptual way (ie there is still conceit of self which means it has only been partially seen).
For me the work that is done from Stream entry to Arahantship is actually perfecting Right View to the point that the mechanism of Delusion itself is fully seen and thus dispelled - Knowledge and vision of things as they really are; ie one can see how and why Delusion has occurred, to transcend it and to no longer be subject to it ( and thus to have transcended conceit of self).
Perfected RV = yathabhutananadassana.
It is this that is the critical thing, and samadhi is a vital condition for that to occur, but is not sufficient in itself… It has to be accompanied by ‘knowing’ and ‘seeing’ and ‘uprooting’ Delusion - finally once and for all, with no chance to re-arise. This does not automatically occur via Jhana, though Jhana is required for it to occur.
It is like I need to have certain cognitive and sensory (mental/physical) abilities to be able to drive a car, but these are not enough to do it. True, I can’t drive a car without these abilities but it is not sufficient. I also need to understand what a car is and how it operates - and then to apply the mental and cognitive abilities specifically to that to be able to drive… for me Jhana is a specific mental ‘ability’, (though t is a bit more complicated) that when applied to a specific thing (existence/suffering) in the right way (yoniso manasikara), yields a specific outcome (Liberation from Delusion). A condition that enables knowledge and vision to arise is Jhana, but Jhana is not sufficient, it also requires Right View which is a result of understanding how the khandas operate.
So it requires both Samatha AND “knowledge and vision” Insight - two sides of the same coin… you can’t just have one - you need both. so Sammasamadhi is a vital condition for yathabhutananadassana. Another way of phrasing this could be that samatha and vipassana are two sides of the same coin and both are necessary.
‘When there is no right immersion, one who lacks right immersion has destroyed a vital condition for true knowledge and vision.
sammāsamādhimhi asati sammāsamādhivipannassa hatūpanisaṁ hoti yathābhūtañāṇadassanaṁ’; SuttaCentral
I suppose that there is an argument that there can only be Sammasamadhi when there is perfected Right View, that prior to this there is partial right samadhi and partial right view… it all comes down to semantics, but I hope that the principle I have presented is still evident, how it is the mutually empowering feedback between these two that is required for both to become perfected.
Depending on the specific semantics and conceptualisations of the factors… ie taking into account Right Effort and Right Mindfulness which are the skills/activities that need to be developed and deployed for knowledge and vision to be the result. SO it depends to what degree these attributes are taken to be represented in the 9th factor. I tend to look at the 9th factor as the result/insight issuing from those activities - but as I said, this is more an issue of categorisation and does not affect the underpinning principle of iddapaccayata. From this perspective I have a theory that these elements are not ‘absolutely’ sequential. I feel that Sammasamadhi and yathabhutananadassana are both required - 2 sides of the same coin (requiring a mutually conditioning feedback loop that gets more and more empowered - 1+1=3). This presents a bit of an echo to how N/R and Consciousness are not truly sequential but mutually conditioning. So whether you want to have that loop operating between the (6 +7) and (8th) factors or represent it as occurring between the 8th and 9th factors, the principle remains the same, simply depending on the specific definitions you apply.
As Right View gets closer to being perfected, so the ability to apply the Jhana Mind in the right way is enhanced, which enhances the ability to penetrate delusion to a greater degree - round and round - growing in power all the time. Jhana enables Super-power Mindfulness (absent any distortions). Super-power Mindfulness makes Jhana easily accessible… round and round, up ever more powerful - penetrative and Delusion-busting. Iddapaccayata in action (like a roaring furnace or avalanche) - beautiful… and this is where I trail off into a homage to the Buddha for showing us the path of conditioning, all the way to Enlightenment.
One can have Jhana, and one can have partial RV, but they can only become actuated when they are united. When compounded and amplified together in this way (Knowledge and Vision being the result), they become the cause or condition for Nibbana.
I can understand why the Vipassana movement came to be established. It is emphasising that side of the coin. However, I strongly feel that BOTH aspects are necessary, but neither is sufficient. Neither should be emphasised (or grasped) above the other, both are required - attaining this balance across the skills and abilities and application is the elusive key…
This theory gains some traction when we look at the different ways or tendencies that are displayed by individuals in their journey to arahantship. Both sides are required, but some are more talented in one side of the coin, others in the other, but both sides are necessary at least to a minimal/necessary degree. The one who is Liberated both ways has both of these faculties equally strong.
As Ajahns last post could be interpreted to not quite align with some of what I was saying I’ll just quickly address this…
While there may not be the bias or distortions of the hindrances active while in the Jhana states, this does not necessarily mean that non-self WILL be seen. One can focus on all kinds of things… including development of psychic powers for example. Additionally, before RV is perfected one can come up with all kinds of explanations for what was occurring after one has emerged, and we see this all the time. It is not ‘natural’ to reach specific conclusions about ‘non-self’ as a result, or else everyone who has powerful Samadhi would reach these conclusions and we know this is not the case. One has to know where and how to look. It is the combination of the experience in Jhana, free from hindrances and distortions, and the resultant pliability and agility of mind, together with right reflection that enables the insight to occur. Just as the Buddha had to apply yoniso manasikara to be able to derive the DO formula. Even though not impeded by hindrances, this wouldn’t have been possible without a very specific way of reflecting that went to the root of cause of suffering.
I apologise if I have misunderstood the nuances of the argument …
Anyway, I don’t raise this to argue or to try to convince anyone, but respectfully to offer a different angle for reflection - perhaps a bridge across perspectives… If it is not helpful, then please disregard.
with metta, and best wishes for everyones journey
There is no such impression inside the jhāna, because the mind is completely still. In the second jhāna, for instance, there is just the pītisukha born of samādhi. But the underlying tendency to conceit, the mānānusaya, which includes the conceit “I am”, has not yet been uprooted. This means that once you emerge from jhāna the sense of “I” will return, and normally it will take the jhāna as the true self. Unless, of course, you are a well-trained Buddhist who understands that jhāna, too, is too be understood as impermanent, and therefore problematic.
It’s about both. If you don’t have the ability to attain the jhāna at death, you will not be reborn in the corresponding realm. If you’re an arahant, you will also not be reborn there. At the same time, the ability to attain jhāna regularly comes before the full abandoning of attachment to it.
In the suttasidappaccayatā pretty much only concerns dependent origination. The word literally means “this conditionality”, that is, that something is a specific condition for something else. Without that condition, the result cannot appear. In dependent origination, this means that once avijjā at the root of the sequence is given up, all the other factors must occur as a consequence. And conversely, when avijjā is eliminated, none of the other factors can occur. For the sequence of dependent liberation (non-regret to Nibbāna), however, there is no such automaticity, which means it is not strictly about idappaccayatā. In other words, idappaccayatā has limited applicability; it is not about conditionality in general. I suspect you are using idappaccayatā in a looser sense, which of course is fine. But we should also be careful with keeping the different kinds of conditionality apart, lest we get confused about the Dhamma.
Yes, the rightness of the view is proportional to the lack of hindrances. When there are no hindrances, you are on the threshold to the complete right view.
I would agree with you that right view and samādhi are mutually supportive. As you attain samādhi again and again, gradually taking in the data and getting used to a new way of seeing the world, you are preparing yourself for the deep insight.
There is more to Awakening than right view. The old habits of thinking and perceiving in terms of a self have still not been uprooted. Only when the stream-enterer remembers their right view with a clear mind, usually after samādhi, are their thinking and perceptions aligned with the view.
Yes, well put. I would add that for anyone who has a good understanding of the Dhamma this process is often quite automatic.
In fact, you could say that all the factors of the eightfold path (or the tenfold “path”) are mutually supportive. At the same time, this becomes particularly interesting and powerful towards the end of the path.
There is no guarantee, but you have put all the conditions into place, that is, right view and samādhi. And the deeper the samādhi, the more automatic the insight into nonself is.
True, but the Buddha was first. He was in a very different situation from us. Whereas we are handed right view on a plate, he had to figure it all out by himself. That is a looooot more difficult!
I do not believe in jhana mind iscompletely still, but is still processing sense info, 6the sense. It is still perceiving things. Aware of this and that. The mind only becomes completely still in sannavedayitarnirdodha. Until that cognition is going on.
Bhante, what do you think about MN117? It explicitly states that Right view is a prerequisite i.e. necessary condition for samadhi. So one has to acquire it before samadhi, not simultaneously.
I will rephrase what i stated: Mind in jhana can be seen as stilled but not as without cognition, not without processing sense info of the 6th sense. There are things perceived in all jhana and that reaches it limitations at last arupa jhana. I am not comfortable with the idea that in jhana there no sense of me perceiving this or that.
I don’t raise this to argue or to try to convince anyone, but respectfully to offer a different angle for reflection - perhaps a bridge across perspectives… If it is not helpful, then please disregard.