What was Jhāna, really?

The Watercooler
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14

This is interesting. Now I’m wondering …

What is the connection between brain and jhana? Indeed is there one?
Does one need a brain to do jhana?
Does a deva have more brain material than a human or less?
Why do some of the deva realms correspond to different jhana attainments?
Could it be that the brain acts like a filter on the mind preventing clear seeing?
Does shutting down the brain result in clear seeing?
Is this why Near Death Experiences are sometimes said to be similar to jhana?

And finally if metabolism does stop in jhana, then the ‘active’ (i.e. neurons firing) brain also presumably stops - see:

Interesting stuff.

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15

It’s the neuron density that matters. Humans have more neural density than whales and elephants despite those animals having larger brains.

Neurons are phosphate based electrical signals, they’re electricity.

So maybe devas have more neural density than humans, but maybe a human like the Buddha can surpass devas in neural density. So the more jhana one develops, the higher the plane, the higher the neural density?

In the end, it’s the mind that matters, and beings in the formless plane are only mind.

All this sums up to the fact that the human brain has the largest number of cortical neurons (about 15 billion), despite the fact that the human brain and cortex are much smaller in size than those of cetaceans and elephants (with 10–12 billion or even fewer cortical neurons).

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Hi Stu
Your thinking is narrowing down into a bottleneck. The breakthrough will come when you understand the structure of the brain and it’s functions. In EBT’s think of it in terms of the aggregates especially sanna and sankhara and how the mental factors are mobilized.
Remember past life actions are derived from mental contact giving rise to feeling tone. There is reaction and the life, death cycle. Ignorance conditions kamma - sanna and sankhara. Volition is conditioned. This conditioning is in the form of an array of neutral factors ie the universals and the occasionals which ‘give life to’ and drive an alignment of responses ie unwholesome or wholesome factors.
In terms of the brain there is innate conditioning running the basics of the mind/body function (7 universals). The occasionals are the drivers of action, think of them as executive function. These drivers are not required for trained automatic functions, what in the mindfulness field are called automatic pilot.
When you practice the satipatthanas you are learning to overcome automatic alignments of mental factors (auto pilot/reaction to feeling tone) by cultivating primarily the occasional mental factors, drivers. In this way unwholesome mental factors (reactions, autopilot) can be hijacked and wholesome ones mobilized to occupy the space instead.
Once this is developed the mind opens up rather than shuts down.

You may be surprised to find that there is more brain activity seen in scans. Similar to REM during sleep.
So let’s answer your questions.

Jhanas in terms of phenomena are products of the right hemisphere of the brain. It is purely objective.

It would be better to have a whole brain but the right hemisphere would suffice for jhana phenomena to be experienced. (Read ‘The master and his emissary’ by Iain McGilchrist) People with damage to their left brain hemispheres live in the right brain and experience the jhana phenomena state as an everyday experience.

Devas are products of the right brain, for a fuller understanding read about mental phenomena in Jungian terms, the ‘personal and collective’ unconscious. All the figures from mythology exist as devas in the right hemisphere of the brain.

This corresponds to different functional elements of the right brain. For contrast your left hemisphere has functions for language and speech and memory. Just think in terms of different neural networks.

Clearly seeing, in internal visual terms, is the quality of the visual experience. Clearly knowing is something different altogether, right view. You may want to check your terminology in the question.

Shutting the brain down results in death.

In fact for serious mental and physical trauma you will find the same response. Near death experience in these term relate specifically to ‘seeing’ your relatives only. The visual arena is the same as described in ‘clearly seeing’, it is the quality of the experience.

If metabolism stops you are dead. If the body however becomes calm, metabolism can slow considerably.

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Yes… Sort of … From the abstract …

The best fit between brain traits and degrees of intelligence among mammals is reached by a combination of the number of cortical neurons, neuron packing density, interneuronal distance and axonal conduction velocity—factors that determine general information processing capacity (IPC), as reflected by general intelligence.

So also the speed of the electrical impulses (which is different from the flow of electricity) in the axons and also the closeness of the neurons to each other (because that bit is done by chemistry - i.e neurotransmitters and hence much slower). Fascinating.

I’ve known a few Border Collies who were way smarter than me with seemingly smaller brains :grinning:

But is “general intelligence”, the same as ability to jhana?

Or maybe these different types of brain are just different filters on reality? A dog brain has a filter that is inclined towards knowing the world through smell and a human brain is more inclined to knowing the world through sight.

So they have no brains at all and yet their meditation surpass the rupa jhanas?

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Jokingly aside they are smart they are not idiot lol

And What’s interesting is the they are not guaranteed to be non returner except pure abode plane maybe because the pure abode gods do have brain because they are in rupa planes

I think brain has more more to with perception the less the perception ability the less neurons you need, in arupas planes the perception is so subtle thus they don’t need brain

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Hi Rich. Good stuff! :heart:

I am maybe suggesting that: the mind opens up when the brain shuts down.

This of course doesn’t make sense if you equate mind with brain which is the dominant scientific theory at the moment. Having said that, I do note that Anil Seth at the Sackler Centre for Consciousness Science (which is a just down the road from me), is trying his best to be neutral about this and not equate mind with brain when he speaks these days. He says it’s not necessary to make this assumption to do the science. Good on him!

The EBTs do not equate mind and brain do they? I think that they are at odds with the current cultural understanding of this. What do you think?

Has a meditator in jhana ever had a scan? How would we know, when we can’t get two people to agree on what jhana means? :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

Yeah, ‘knowing’ is a better translation - Sampajañña

Maybe?? But …

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No maybe about it.
Unless of course you think you live beyond the body. ‘Mindful there is a body, feelings, mind and dhammas’ but also mindful there is no self in these or anywhere else. Dukkha anatta.
I think a way not to get confused about the brain on one hand and Buddhist psychology is to consider the brain as a physical bio-mechanism and Buddhist psychology as the phenomena it produces. An analogy would be to think of a building built of bricks (brain), you live in and experience the spaces in between the constructed bricks (psychology) and not in the bricks themselves.

Consider both, one informs the other at the interface. You cannot live in a brick and you cannot build with space. Mindful a building exists and mindful the aggregate material is not the self. Mindful there is space but no self exists in space.

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Well maybe? In DN15 we get…

‘Continued existence is a condition for rebirth’—that’s what I said. And this is a way to understand how this is so. Suppose there were totally and utterly no continued existence for anyone anywhere. That is, continued existence in the sensual realm, the realm of luminous form, or the formless realm. When there’s no continued existence at all, with the cessation of continued existence, would rebirth still be found?”

“No, sir.”

I guess it depends if there are “brains” in the “the realm of luminous form, or the formless realm”?

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Luminous form is in the realm of the brain. Within the space between the bricks with windows to see out into universal space.
Death and rebirth, moment to moment, every five billionth of a second one Bikkhu describes it, the reference escapes me. Death and rebirth in the 12 links, moment to moment, not body to body in material form. Death and rebirth in phenomenological form within the timescale of ones physical life. Death and rebirth many times in that relative material existence. Death and rebirth many times within psychological existence. Remember the nature of the path is to prevent rebirth and cease the many lives of suffering. It’s about having a clear, stable, steady mind. In brain terms the equanimity is the right balance between the hemispheres of the brain. Neither to exist in the covetous right brain of jhana phenomena or in the autopilot world of the left brain. Pursuit of jhana phenomena is craving of the highest (or lowest) order. When the time is right it will naturally occur through good practice, note it and let it go.

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Yeah, sure; we can take and use Dependent Origination metaphorically and that can be useful, but that’s not what we find in the EBTs.

For example in SN12.2 the Buddha gives definitions for what he means for the terms used in Dependent Origination.

And what is old age and death? The old age, decrepitude, broken teeth, grey hair, wrinkly skin, diminished vitality, and failing faculties of the various sentient beings in the various orders of sentient beings. This is called old age. The passing away, perishing, disintegration, demise, mortality, death, decease, breaking up of the aggregates, and laying to rest of the corpse of the various sentient beings in the various orders of sentient beings. This is called death. Such is old age, and such is death. This is called old age and death.

and rebirth …

And what is rebirth? The rebirth, inception, conception, reincarnation, manifestation of the aggregates, and acquisition of the sense fields of the various sentient beings in the various orders of sentient beings. This is called rebirth.

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This is quite clear, breaking up of the aggregates and laying to rest the corpse of SENTIENT beings. Phenomenological beings. Beings that you think you are in the mind. They arise and fall.
Rebirth via sankhara of the said imagined beings. Nothing here to reference relative physical life times. Only imagined defilements of the mind. Imagined, delusional beings, images of self. Dukkha anatta. To be reincarnated or to covet reincarnation is delusional. The wheel keeps spinning. Samsara is party town.

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At least in the EBT’s, the four main types of mindfulness presented are mindfulness of the body, feelings, mind, and dharmas. All four are considered to be correct, although they proceed from coarse to subtle. This is laid out throughout the Satipatthana Samyutta. The Buddha admonishes others to abide in the four bases of mindfulness, and that this is their own home, dwelling, monkey habitat, etc.

The text in question, SN 47.20, is a rare text in the Satipatthana Samyutta in that it does not list all four types of mindfulness. The parallel in SA 623, however, does include all four types of mindfulness, and it does not equate the pot of oil with mindfulness of the body.

That having been said, all the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path, including the factor of mindfulness, “rely on seclusion, fading away, and cessation, and ripen as letting go.” Seclusion from unwholesome dharmas is part of entry into the First Dhyana, and samadhi is characterized by unity of mind (ekagrata).

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Then may we all be free of the delusion of “decrepitude, broken teeth, grey hair, wrinkly skin, diminished vitality, and failing faculties” :heart:

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They have a mind, but not a brain :smiley:

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The current weakening of the dhamma is marked by the pursuance of serenity rather than insight.

Insight is only for the few, Conventional and Ultimate reality p 36:

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Haha, language doesn’t determine truth. Anyway, I didn’t read the other sources you have. I rather keep my faith in Jhanas strong and practice towards it. I think the best is personal experience matching with suttas. Instead of arguing if Jhanas are needed, just practice the path clearly leading to it, and don’t waste time.

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Leading to what ?
If jhana is not needed there’s no need to practice anything leading to jhana because it’s a waste of time

If you mean Leading to extinguishment I agree

You have not convince me here do you think a person who knows nothing about pali can know what the Buddha said in pali better than a person who masters the pali or not ?

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To Jhanas. There’s more time wasted on arguing on this which can be used for Jhanas already. It’s a risk to think it’s not needed and Buddha did highly praised Jhanas.

Ajahn Brahm knows his Pali, he taught Ajahn Brahmali. Anyway, the more critical issue for me is not Pali knowledge, it’s whether the person had practiced Jhanas, and then able to teach them well.

For the Pali thing, we have so many different translators already, I am not convinced that the truth of the Dhamma is so elusive as to be only found if you learn Pali. The Buddha allowed us to learn the Dhamma in our own language. The deciding factor whether one person is a believer in hard Jhanas or not has more to do with other factors of their practice rather than their knowledge of Pali language. Those who didn’t get good instructions for Jhanas, practiced it wrongly, naturally prefers that the Buddha didn’t taught that Jhanas are necessary.

Or those brought up in dry vipassana traditions which is overly influenced by the intimidation that only a few in so many can attain to Jhanas in the commentaries would naturally see Jhanas as optional. I don’t buy any reasoning from those motivations when the path to Jhanas are so clear and open as Ajahn Brahm taught them. Youtube Ajahn Brahm meditation retreat.

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With great respect. I have just read through this discussion with interest. Analayo (2003 pp44-46) Satipatthana, The direct path to realization, sums up the confusion.

“Applying the epistemological position of early Buddhism to actual practice, oral tradition and reasoning, in the sense of some degree of knowledge and reflection about the Dhamma, form the supporting conditions for a direct experience of reality through the practice of satipatthana.”

With Metta.

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Well, there was this paper, which was rather interesting:

where they got Leigh Brasington to go through such states and get fMRI and EEG scans etc. of the process. Though, of course, not everyone will agree that this was jhana. It would be fascinating if someone could repeat the process and compare with other (obviously lay) jhana practitioners, e.g. Shaila Catherine coming from the Pa Auk Visuddhimagga approach. I guess the results would be somewhat different but perhaps there would be many similarities too.

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