What was meant with apart from?

Q & A
1

he conceives himself apart from

https://suttacentral.net/mn1/en/bodhi?reference=none&highlight=false

2

I think it means “separate from”.

3

Take example with Nibbāna:

1. He conceives himself as Nibbāna: wrong view of “Self is the same as Nibbāna”
2. He conceives himself in Nibbāna: wrong view of “Self is inside of Nibbāna”
3. He conceives himself apart from Nibbāna: wrong view of “Self is outside of Nibbāna”
4. He conceives Nibbāna to be “mine”: wrong view of “Nibbāna belongs to Self”
5. He delights in Nibbāna: wrong attention to Nibbāna, wrong understanding of Nibbāna

So, “apart from” can be interpreted as “outside of”.

For comparison, you can map 4 cases above (1-4) to 4 cases highlighted below in the sutta MN 131:

And how do you falter amid presently arisen phenomena? It’s when an uneducated ordinary person has not seen the noble ones, and is neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the noble ones. They’ve not seen good persons, and are neither skilled nor trained in the teaching of the good persons. They regard form as self (1), self as having form (4), form in self (3), or self in form (2). They regard feeling … perception … choices … consciousness as self, self as having consciousness, consciousness in self, or self in consciousness. That’s how you falter amid presently arisen phenomena.

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4

Very interesting sutta, i find.

After the perception starts the conceiving. The moment the mind starts conceiving rupa, vedana, sanna, sankhara and vinnana the mind is bound by Mara it is said (SN22.64)
Sujato translates 'the moment the mind start identifying.

The main conceit is the conceit ‘I am’ and from this spring ‘I am this’. …I shall be, I shall not be etc’ .

…"Involvement with conceit is a disease, involvement with conceit is a tumour, involvement with conceit is a dart. Therefore, bhikkhus, you should train yourselves thus: ‘We will dwell with a mind in which conceit has been struck down.’ Thus should you train yourselves.” (SN35.248)

It is said that the conceit ‘I am’ does not occur without clinging to the khandha’s (SN22.83).
Clinging to vedana for example with the view ‘this i am’ or with craving, ‘this i want’.

“This is me, this is mine, this is my self”, are all explained as kinds of clingings, i have seen.
"This is my self’ is seen as cliging due to views
“This is me” is seen as clinging due to conceit
“This is mine” is seen as clinging due to craving (MN, Bodhi, note 257)

But in the end, i belief, it is all rooted in the underlying currents of craving (anusaya) such as the underlying current of views and conceit (MN18) In contact with the world, the All, these currents start to flow. We do not intentionally do that.

But…

“‘The tides of conceiving do not sweep over one who stands upon these foundations, and when the tides of conceiving no longer sweep over him he is called a sage at peace.’ So it was said" (MN140)

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5

I’m understanding it a whole different way. It’s saying to me that because we belief in the things mentioned we create attachment which in turn let’s us experience it in real life. Meaning each individual might be different. For example in India. Because it’s in the culture to believe in Shiva they see it as fact. Something that exist. That’s why they see Shiva. They see Shiva as something separately created. But it’s all in the mind. The whole idea is that even at the level of higher jhanas we can see them as something our mind didn’t create. Even Nibbana is not apart from our mind. Some people really see it deeply as something like super special. In NDE people report seeing something of their family faith or what they truly believe in. That’s why I see all its saying is about our illusion that we create ourselves by truly believing. And in turn creates the other attachments

6

It’s fine, I understand your understanding. :smiley:

What I did was: I only tried to present what I understand, using the sutta to support for what I said.

So in that way, you might be convinced of what I said. On the other hand, you can also be not convinced of what I said. Totally fine. :smiley:

For this part, I don’t agree with your statement but we can agree to disagree :smiley:

Maybe someone else here can give you the answer that fit with your understanding.

7

In the sense that without the unborn there isn’t the born.

9

Found the sutta that helped.

With that I understand then conceiving being part still of not being the end. Delight is also part of sensual pleasure. Meaning like Buddha who didn’t choose seclusion only after Nibbana. That’s why the story of Brahma request is pure symbolic for him truly ending the world.
Not delighting in Nibbana.

mind in the world you perceive the world and conceive the world.

That’s why with mind we would still perceive Nibbana in certain ways than its not Nibbana yet.

But I also say there’s no making an end of suffering without reaching the end of the world.

End to perceiving, trancending.

https://suttacentral.net/sn35.116/en/sujato?layout=linebyline&reference=none&notes=asterisk&highlight=false&script=latin