Such accounts, in all honesty, put me in mind of Mahayana Buddhist accounts of meeting celestial Buddhas and Bodhisattvas - most notably the Yogacara Buddhist Asanga’s gaining not just “dhamma tips” but five treatises (!) from Metteyya. In such an environment, eternalism would be easy to fall into.
I really don’t get all this fuzz about anybody experiences, and the need for interpreting suchlike.
As I have understood it, the sense of self will be here until Arahant-ship!?
And even worse, in my experience of my personal mind, is to speculate that some monks may be driven by ignorance or ill will when they deliver teachings because that must surely draw some bad Kamma.
I really have fun with myself, and couldn’t care less, it’s just a big joke to see how it wiggles and bounces.
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Wow, okay. To be honest, most Western Buddhists—and quite possibly Buddhists from other Theravadin countries—don’t really get how very weird a lot of Thai teachings really are. (Not just the Thais, of course—everyone is weird in their own way!)
I mean, look, as far as I’m concerned, good on ’em, if they’re happy, the weirder the better. It’s just, let’s not automatically assume that because something is said by a “Theravadin” monk that it is the same as what the Buddha taught.
Sidenote: if we define “Theravadin” according to the classical standard of the doctrines set out in the Kathāvatthu, then most Thai monks, certainly the forest monks, fail the test. So do I, incidentally, and for some of the same reasons (Thai forest monks usually believe in the antarabhava, for example, and so do I, but the Kathāvatthu does not).
In practice “Theravada” is defined by the self-identity of the community based on ordination lineage, history, and scripture, not primarily by doctrine (at least in Thailand). And that’s a good thing!
The point I’m making is simply this: modern “Theravada” is diverse, creative, and complicated, and while it is influenced by the doctrines in the Pali canonical and commentarial traditions, it is not defined by them.
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Exactly my thought when I read about the ‘Nibbana Celestial’ reachable through ‘ultra meditation’. Accidentally, while visiting the Nibbana Celestial and conversing with the Buddha, Luang Phor Ruesi Lingdam had the good merit to have the Tathagata propose him a couple of corrections to the wealth gatha that the Venerable was known for. From then on, the gatha came to be known as ‘millionaire gatha’ since its wealth-generating qualities had been very much enhanced by the Buddha’s advice.
Apparently, the edited gatha has worked quite well for at least Venerable Lingdam, as Wat Thasung is still a very rich and impressively looking monastery, and the Venerable’s amulets are sold for rather impressive prices.
Very good advice indeed, thank you Venerable! 
Still, I find the similarities between the Venerable Lingdam’s story of meeting the Buddha and Ajahn Mun’s account of being congratulated with his arahantship by the Buddha and other arahants (even though only known from his biography by Ajahn Maha Bua) intriguing. Apparently, that is quite a thing in certain Thai Forest Tradition circles: Luang Pu Plien claimed to have talked to Ajahn Mun, the Buddha and other arahants on a more or less regular basis.
My point being that, given the similarities between these accounts as well as somewhat eternalistic rhethoric of certain Thai Forest ajahns, one can pretty easily make their own conclusions about the ultimate extent of these teachers’ spiritual attainment. As well as about how difficult the Right View is to come by even among very good Theravadin monks 
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@vstakan
Upon a closer reexamination of Ajahn Chah’s English translated talks it becomes completely apparent to me that every instance of “Original Mind” or “The Knower” is referencing the ‘existential-momentum that is the prime mover behind paṭisandhahati’ which lacks even a describing word in the Pali language found in the suttas and what the Abhidhamma would later classify as the “bhavaṅga”(which seems to also miss the point as well).
It is likely that this discrepancy relating to the absence of a precise single word expressing the mechanism of paṭisandhi to contrast with the more common and simplistic atta of saṅkamati is the genesis of this concern. This is clearly not a mistake in the elucidation of the Dhamma, either.
Seemingly more of a problem/limitation of language than an artifact of “eternalism” or something more nefarious.
Make of this analysis what you will.
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Most of this discussion is beyond me (not familiar with the terms or the teachers), but the sentence above in the [Discuss & Discover] email that came today reminded me of a quote I came across a while back that has given me good food for thought:
So I thought I’d just drop it in here. Don’t know the provenance, haven’t gotten around to asking anybody about it.
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From a Reddit page…I did not know this, or the meaning of antarabhava…
Antara: in-between
bhava: becomingSo there’s the notion of rebirth. After death a new life occurs. Antarabhava is the concept, suggested in Pali suttas but rejected in the Theravadin Abhidhamma, that there is a period of time between the end of one life and start of the next. That’s all. An intermediate stage.
What happens in that stage is described differently in different traditions.
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This is what’s cool about Bhante Sujato, among other things. He has papers like this that are defining scholarship, and then we have Sujato’s Blog, which is a treasure trove. Thanks for posting this, Javier!
I’ve actually assembled binders of essays and published scholarship (eg Authenticity) of Bhante Sujato (and Ven. Brahmali) and brought these binders to some wats in Thailand that have farang meditators coming for retreat, Wat Pa Tam Wua being one of my favorites. I visited Wat Pa Tam Wua once, and looked through the English language bookshelves, and saw books from Eckhardt Tolle, some Zen books…I decided to make some binders of the “real stuff” for these folks that visit Wat Pa.
One day, someone’s going to make an anthology of the Sujato’s Blog and articles like the one you posted Javier, and it’ll be required reading for people that want to really get at the heart of the Dhamma, at least from the perspective of the honest and skilled scholarship of Vens. Sujato and Brahmali.
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We should add that to the (already stupidly large) list! @Dheerayupa ?
Your website gets more and more awesome every day Bhante. 
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It’s in fact been on my list of projects to do… 
Am glad you will join me in attempting this long list of projects. <3
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From Ajahn Chahs biography Stillness Flowing:
In the mid-1970s, Luang Por acquired, as it were, another arrow to his rhetorical bow. He was much taken with Ajahn Buddhadasa’s newly published translations of the works of the Chinese Zen Masters, Hui Neng and Huang Po[13]. He found these texts gave him a new and fresh vocabulary to express the Dhamma. Western monks who had practised in the Zen tradition added to his knowledge. The influence that these translated texts had upon the way he taught may be observed in a number of his later Dhamma discourses. There are, for example, a number of references to the mind (citta) in terms comparable to how the phrase ‘original mind’ is used in Zen texts. On one occasion, he compared the mind to a leaf that is naturally still but flutters about because of the wind of mental states:
If it understood the nature of thoughts, the mind would stay still. This is called the natural state of the mind. And why we have come to practise now is to see the mind in this pristine state.
And here:
Towards the end of his teaching career, Luang Por read and was impressed by the newly published Thai translations of Chinese Zen Masters such as Huang Po. This became apparent in the way in which he began to talk about the distinction between the mind itself[17] and mental states. He started to use terms like ‘original mind’, not as philosophical positions but as skilful means to be used for looking within. At the end of this talk, Luang Por emphasized that people make a mistake in complaining about their mind being in turmoil. He said that there’s nothing wrong with the mind itself, it’s naturally at ease. It’s the defilements, the craving which are the problem. It was important to separate the two.
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This sort of thing would account for at least some of the Mahayana type concepts found in the Thai Forest Tradition. For example, in The Collected Teachings of Ajahn Chah (192):
Eventually the breath disappears all together and all that remains is that feeling of alertness. This is called meeting the Buddha. We have that clear, wakeful awareness called Bud-dho, the one who knows, the awakened one, the radiant one. This is meeting and dwelling with the Buddha, with knowledge and clarity. It was only the historical Buddha who passed away. The true Buddha, the Buddha that is clear, radiant knowing, can still be experienced and attained today.
This is a very mystical, Mahayana type of conception of the Buddha. The Vajracchedika Prajnaparamita is one of the early Mahayana sutras that has a concept of “perceiving the Buddha”. It pans the earlier practice of visualizing the 32 marks, replacing the practice with non-conceptualization and non-abiding. “Buddha” becomes shorthand for purity or the unconditioned.
There are many other Mahayana sutras that contain similar conceptions of the Buddha, and mindfulness of the Buddha, and linking them with realization of anatman, emptiness of self, emptiness of dharmas, etc. These are among the oldest themes in Mahayana sutras. Interesting that Ajahn Chah picked up these concepts quickly.
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Honestly, this one was never Mahayana-like for me. I interpreted it as being about sati and samadhi and meaning that being the Buddha essentially means having clear and radiant, seeing the world as it is. Since there is only one ‘world’, this state of clearly knowing and seeing is one and the same for everyone, it was available to everyone before the Buddha, during His times and is still available now. While meditating we can temporarily suppress our evil roots and underlying tendencies and temporarily feel what it is like to see the world as an arahant or Buddha.
I have never felt any Mahayana like mystical undertones when it came to this part of Ajahn Chah’s teaching repertoire. I feel like it was more something that he picked up in Zen books to use as an alternative terminology, alternative useful and intuitive way of referring to the meditation experiance. Especially considering that quite a few of his Western students at the time (e.g. people as prominent as Ajahn Sumedho) had a substantial Zen backgrounds. He took Mahayana content, emptied it of the dogma and used the remaining terminological bare bones as a means to his ends - that is how I see this one.
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Yeah, one could suspect they were easily picked up because they are convenient for practical use.
Another great thing about the Thai forest tradition is that many, or maybe most of the Ajahn’s have a broad perspective on the teachings of the Buddha.
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Reading this thread, I feel like reading a paralel of thousand years old debate in Mahayana tradition between Yogacara and Madhyamaka.
In short, Yogacara believe in something like Original Mind, which they called alayavijnana (storehouse consciousness/ 7th consciousness), in which the definition is eternal, unchanging, source and basis of enlightenment blablabla - you are familiar with it.
This is the Real self, the primordial mind.
And then Madhyamaka came and said, “what you said about alayavijnana is true, it exist, but it is also empty”
Yogacara: "no it is not! "
Madhyamaka: "it is, you just haven’t see deeper. "
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In that case it was the Theravadin Yogacara that came to the Theravadin Madhyamikas and said: ‘All that BS about emptiness is BS. We have found a true self.’ Which kinda sounds absurd if it happens in that reverse order, if you ask me.
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As far as I know, Yogacara as developed by Asanga and Vasubandhu did not have something similar to an “original mind”. The storehouse consciousness (8th consciousness) was basically an abstraction for the functioning of karma, rebirth, etc. Similar to the bhavanga in Theravada abhidharma.
When people mention “buddha-nature” type concepts, the basis for that is found in the Tathagatagarbha sutras. Earlier Mahayana sutras typically emphasized the emptiness of self and dharmas. Tathagatagarbha sutras instead emphasized a positive potential to achieve enlightenment.
Some later people tried to combine Tathagatagarbha with Yogacara, as found in the Lankavatara Sutra. Similar hybrid systems eventually took hold in late Indian Buddhism and Tibetan Buddhism. Dan Lusthaus goes into some of this stuff in his intro to Yogacara, which covers the original system and its later Tathagatagarbha hybrid variants.
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Hi Ajahn,
my own view of Ajahn Chah’s use of a term such as knower (I assume this is a correct translation) is that he was trying to use simple language to describe a state of knowing/ wisdom aside from thinking and perceiving.
I find this view helpful and it aligns with my conceiving of what an experience of wisdom could be - separate to any identity and comprising a direct experience of non- self.
However, it seems to me that is incredibly difficult to translate direct experiences into spoken language. Hence the popularity of verse and song and metaphor. I think that even the Buddha indicated that the experience of Nibbana is almost impossible to describe given the limitations of language or perhaps as you say, whatever language used is misinterpreted according to our individual biases.
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