Bhante 
Is it elusive ? I thought the middle way is the eight fold path ?
Exactly. But it needs to be understood in the context of the middle way. Most people seem to find it hard to practice the eight factors while not veering to extremes.
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Iâm not sure i quite understand. Do you mean any factor of the path can be practiced to either extremes of sensual-indulgence or self-mortification ?
I mean that the eight factors need to be practised while avoiding self-torment and indulgence. Only then are you likely to get the most out of the practice.
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I hope iâm not bothering you.
What about some one with a sickness with painful bodily feelings can he follow the eightfold path or does he have to wait until he is cured ?
If you are sick, you have no choice, you have to bear with it. But if you have a choice, you should avoid self-torment.
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what if someone practices vedananupassana with a arisen painful feeling while sitting in meditation without changing the posture to relieve the pain, would that count as self-torment?
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Most of the time I think it does. According to the ÄnÄpÄnasati Sutta you can fulfil vedanÄnupassanÄ without a direct contemplation of pain.
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People are interested in ascetic practices because itâs something different. It could bolster the ego. Monks also get more veneration if they have an ascetic life. An ascetic life doesnât necessarily mean NibbÄna, as the Buddha found out. Ideally practice should come first and the lifestyle is a natural result of the result of the practice. The practioner needs to be mindful of that which helps or is an obstacle to the practice.
Middle path is the Noble eightfold path but there is a spectrum of life-styles that could fall under it. A layperson enjoying sensuality to an ascetic monk with dhuthanga practice would practice the N8FP. It would probably work best somewhere in the middle for most as craving for sensual pleasures and aversion to hardship are the drawbacks on each side. When unable to have sensual pleasures as and when required shows up craving readily making it easier to work on it. But not so much the bare necessities are lost and someone falls sick. The amount of food can be determined by whether itâs a sedentary lifestyle, whatâs healthy for a given individual and to control hunger pangs. Usually one or two meals a day is good for many reasons. Portion sizes might matter more than frequency of meals as someone might eat 2 meals worth in one sitting. Sickness is another reason for being flexible with these things.
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There are many reasons to find asceticism interesting or fruitful. For lay people itâs impressive and inspiring - probably they are projecting the wavering and the insufficiencies of normal life onto the ascetic who seems to be in perfect control over their body and mind.
For the practitioner asceticism has an allure because of a valid insight into the problems of life and the mind - when desire is identified as an issue, then the solution for it seems to be close at hand, namely disliking, eradicating, and trying to kill it off at its root.
âSelf-tormentâ is not a good translation for tapas, itâs too judgemental. Maybe something with âhardshipâ would be better. Anyhow, the Buddhist texts suggest that the tapassin is a masochist or so, whereas the serious ones have identified the problem similarly as the Buddha did, namely desire and attachment. They are just trying to pursue a more obvious solution - which doesnât work.
Also declaring the practice as âthe middle pathâ is not very helpful I think. It throws the assessment of what âmiddleâ is back at the individual, which usually leaves them where they are. People in meditation groups have argued âmore than 30 minutes of meditation is painful, Iâm not supposed to inflict pain on myself, so I donât do itâ - so âthe middle pathâ can become a slogan of non-change.
It would be more helpful to actually define the practice and not saying that itâs the middle between extremes - what âextremeâ is varies much from person to person and doesnât accidentally mean what the EBT mean by it.
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Hello Bhante,
I think a useful distinction is to be made between unnatural and natural asceticism.
From Wikipedia:
Dom Cuthbert Butler classified asceticism into natural and unnatural forms:[10]
- âNatural asceticismâ involves a lifestyle which reduces material aspects of life to the utmost simplicity and to a minimum. This may include minimal, simple clothing, sleeping on a floor or in caves, and eating a simple minimal amount of food.[10] Natural asceticism, state Wimbush and Valantasis, does not include maiming the body or harsher austerities that make the body suffer.[10]
- âUnnatural asceticismâ, in contrast, covers practices that go further, and involves body mortification, punishing oneâs own flesh, and habitual self-infliction of pain - such as by sleeping on a bed of nails.[10]
The Buddha seems to have regularly promoted natural asceticism but not unnatural asceticism. Natural asceticism pretty much IS the middle way between the way regular people live and the way unnatural ascetics do.
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The Buddha doesnât criticize tapas afaik, and it definitely shouldnât be translated as self-torment. Self-torment is attakilamathÄnuyogo. Tapas can include attakilamathÄnuyogo of course, in which case it is is painful, ignoble, and pointless, but doesnât necessarily.
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There are several compounds though, like attantapa in ânevattantapo ⊠na parantapoâ, e.g. in MN 51 which B. Sujato translates as âdoesnât mortify either themselves or othersâ, B. Bodhi as ânot torment himselfâŠâ
It would be interesting in that context to get a fuller view on tapas in the EBT. Not sure if someone like Kaelber did it already? Unfortunately I donât have âAscetism in Buddhism and Brahmanismâ by Shiraishi at handâŠ
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Yes, that lay people find it impressive is common knowledge and even mentioned in the EBTs. But this is precisely why one needs to be careful. One should practice in a way that leads to the quickest possible progress, not to impressive anyone. In fact there are rules in the Vinaya against pursuing ascetic practices to impressive others.
The same is true of psychic powers. Most Buddhists love stories of monastic who possess them, yet the Buddha laid down a rule that specifically prohibits displaying such powers.
As Buddhists it is our duty to point out what is really worthy of respect, that is, paññÄ, samÄdhi, and sÄ«la, in that order. The alternative is further degeneration.
Well yes, this is what people think, but it is not really the case. Although this seems to be a common misperception, the way to ending desire is not to create dislike or aversion. Aversion is just negative desire, the desire to avoid. As such it is just as problematic as desire. The point is that any kind of desire takes you out of the present moment. What you need is that even mind where you are neither attracted nor repelled by the body or the senses. Only then can you let go of these things.
I was referring to the Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta and thus attakilamathÄnuyoga.
Youâve got to argue with the Buddha on that one! 
But seriously, I do personally find it very useful, as do many others. It obviously does not mean that you move or give up with the slightest pain. But when the pain becomes disturbing and persistent, then it is good to change you posture. Most people are able find a posture they can keep for an hour or more without moving, whether itâs sitting cross-legged or leaning against a board or sitting on a chair. So you choose a posture accordingly.
The main point is to get rid of the body so that it does not interfere with the meditation. For this to be possible, both desire and aversion must go.
Thatâs interesting.
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In sutta use the term has both positive and negative meanings, (though the positive sense seems to be the more common). That is, there is tapas that the Buddha commends and tapas that he criticizes. See the MahÄsÄ«hanÄdasutta (DN 8), RÄsiyasutta (SN 42:12) and VajjiyamÄhitasutta (AN 10:94).
Na kho, bhante, bhagavÄ sabbaáč tapaáč garahati napi sabbaáč tapassiáč lĆ«khÄjÄ«viáč ekaáčsena upakkosati upavadati. GÄrayhaáč kho, bhante, bhagavÄ garahati, pasaáčsitabbaáč pasaáčsati. GÄrayhaáč kho pana, bhante, bhagavÄ garahanto pasaáčsitabbaáč pasaáčsanto vibhajjavÄdo bhagavÄ, na so bhagavÄ ettha ekaáčsavÄdo.
âNo, venerable sirs, the Blessed One does not criticize all asceticism, nor does he categorically denounce or disparage all ascetics who live the rough life. The Blessed One criticizes what should be criticized, and praises what should be praised. Criticizing what should be criticized, praising what should be praised, the Blessed One is one who speaks making distinctions, not one who speaks categorically on this matter.â
(VajjiyamÄhitasutta)
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I donât have reasons to distrust the asceticsâ motivation generally. Just as there are monastics for the wrong reasons there are of course ascetics for the wrong reasons (or Unicef employees etc.). The fact is that asceticism is impressive, much more so if itâs sincere. And of course they would say itâs for the quickest possible progress as well. I donât think ascetics would say âI know my practice doesnât lead anywhere, and Buddhism is much quicker, but I just stick to my practiceâ.
And this creates so many problems for meditators. How do I meditate without the desire for meditation? How do I move the mind in any direction (even a wholesome one) without the doubt that it could be tainted by a subtle desire? ⊠Youâre obviously right, but how to make it work in day-to-day life is mind-boggling for many people.
Sure, just what it means in practice is up for debate, and the more severe meditators (e.g. of the Thai forest tradition) certainly have a different understanding than contemporary Westeners. I remember a friend told be how in the 80s in the Mahasi Center in Myanmar everyone was expected to meditate for hours on a concrete floor without mat or cushion. Is that still Middle Path? Or was Mahasi expecting too much asceticism? There are obviously a lot of varying interpretations, even among monastics, which leaves the lay practitioner confused.
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Iâm very surprised with this statement as pÄ«ti and sukha are experienced in the body as the jhanas similes clearly indicate.
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I recall some of the older Ajahn Chah monks like Ajahn Sumedho saying they experienced meditating and sitting on concrete floors as well, though they might have had a thin mat between their body and the concrete.
One motivation for asceticism is to imitate whatever seemed to work for the Buddha. After the Buddha stopped practicing extreme self-mortification, his lifestyle before awakening was still an ascetic one.
My understanding is that learning to deal with discomfort and annoyances like flies, mosquitos, bodily aches etc. was part of the practice, and that an austere life is useful for avoiding temptations to luxury, overeating, etc.
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I have stopped eating dinner to develop my understanding of the EBTâs. Since then, the fat cat and I have both lost weight and seem to be just fine. And moderation is actually key here because cramming two meals into one would be cheating as youâve mentioned. What had NOT worked for many years was moderation at every meal. Both the fat cat and I slowly gained weight. From this I conclude that the middle way does indeed require a moderate ascetism (i.e., mindful restraint) as well. Not eating dinner is moderate ascetism.
Aye.
This seems to have the potential for horribly cruelty in the pursuit of excess adherence to practices. There is a vast difference sitting on a sun-warmed rock and cold northern concrete. There is also a vast difference in our individual bodies and their ability to fold themselves into meditation poses. And it would make impossible the kind gesture of giving oneâs neighbor the only mat in the room.