Close but not quite.
We agree that they can be pleasurable – but that’s the trap! That’s why it’s so hard to let go of attachment. So, in this way too, there’s dukkha even in the pleasure.
The Buddha taught, as we know, that beyond the gratification, and within it, we need to see the danger, and that’s what leads to nibbidā and virāga. As in SN22.73.
If dukkha is understood only in its strongest sense, as awful suffering, this can limit our understanding about the 1st NT imo.
Of course, our experiences of sunsets and birdsongs can be pleasurable and are not experienced as the dukkha of severe bodily or mental injury.
But they’re conditional.
And the Buddha teaches, as I understand it, that all conditions are not so much “marked” by anicca, dukkham and anattā as that they are these.
In this way, duklkha.
And, most fortunately, the practice and way to escape all that.
But that’s my point. It’s pleasurable but because these are conditional they’re not nibbāna.
They’re impermanent and the Buddha taught:
" What’s impermanent is suffering. Yad aniccaṁ taṁ dukkhaṁ; over and over again.
Nobody is saying there’s no pleasure. And that’s the trap because the unawakened mind seeks pleasure and tries to avoid pain. These cravings drive the process called transmigration. Yes?
Not to derail the thread, but it’s related to the three characteristics…
I think this is a literary trope in some Pāḷi texts, found also at MN 35. Bhante Sujato has a note at MN 35:
Despite this, this teaching that omits “suffering” (dukkha ) is not taught by the Buddha at all. It only appears in one other sutta, where it is spoken by the mendicants after the Buddha’s passing (SN 22.90:2.2; but see below at MN 35:9.5). Strikingly, both the current sutta and SN 22.90 share a common narrative pattern. In both cases, an interlocuter (Saccaka or Channa, both known for their conceit) asks for teaching from a lesser teacher (Assaji or unnamed mendicants). Their reply omits suffering, but this fails. So they seek a better teacher (the Buddha, Ānanda) who not only includes suffering, but specially emphasizes it (MN 35:21.2, SN 22.90:9.7). This teaching is successful.
As he says, at SN 22.90, Venerable Ānanda teaches Channa a discourse that specifically emphasizes dukkha (the famous line in SN 12.15). And at MN 35, the Buddha introduces the teaching on dukkha to Saccaka after it wasn’t initially there.
Hi Jasudho, i take some time to explain how i see it. Hope it does not annoy.
I believe the concept of anicca can best be understood in the context of that what is constructed, and relies for its existence on conditions or parts. It will become otherwise, it is unstable, not constant, it will cease. That deals with anicca. Also something that we do not experience as impermanent such as a diamant, or such as the Earth, is still anicca. Anicca is a concept that maybe can be summed up in short as impermanance, but it also has a more wider meaning, i feel. All these three marks are closely related.
I think that it is important to notice that the Buddha identifies all such liable to arise, cease and change, as unreliable. (SN15.20) One cannot really depend on it. If one relies on something that is anicca, one can immediately see and understand that this is a vulnerable situation, because it will become otherwise and can even cease.
I believe this is the dukkha aspect: That all that is conditioned, impermanent, becoming otherwise, liable to cease is unreliable. It cannot function as a support for lasting happiness, peace, safety, refuge, protection. And that is what all beings seek in essence, also the Buddha did that. We all seek it in a wrong way. Becoming dependend on what is anicca that can never be a Path to Peace.
But ofcourse, we must also not grasp to the extreme not to take medicine, not to build houses, avoid treatments etc. And not rely at all on what is anicca.
But we must find the middle way.
Nibbana is not opposed to the khandha’s, but refers to that state in which the khandhas are not grasped as me, mine and my self. Nibbana is not without formations arising and ceasing, it is not without what is impermanent.
Nibbana refers to that empty and peaceful cooled dimension in which the unconditioned and the conditioned are integrated in such a way that arising and ceasing formations do not lead to agitation, unrest, end of peace.
Grasping formations as me, mine, my self constructs states and that does not happen anymore. But Nibbana is not opposed to formations arising and ceasing.
Yes, there is bhava tanha, vibhava tanha and kama tanha as you know. Behind these cravings there is a vision of delight and looking forward to something that one sees as the escape from suffering.
With kama tanha one looks forward to enjoy the pleasure of the sense in this life and one sees this as the escape from ones suffering. It does not mean that enjoying the senses is kama tanha. If i see a nice house i can enjoy it without becoming greedy. But if i would want to see nice houses to get a good feeling that is kama tanha. There is an sich nothing wrong with enjoying what we see, hear, etc.
With bhava tanha one is said to look forward to enjoy the happiness in heavens and sees this as the escape of ones suffering.
With vibhava tanha one is looking forward that the khandhas cease to exist and one does not feel and perceive any suffering anymore. That is what one sees as the escape of ones suffering.
But i have not really seen it explained this way in the suttas. There is not that much said about vibhava tanha.
(I also like the idea that bhava tanha can be seen when we have a strong desire to manifest ourselves, to exist, be present as this or that persona. Probably you know these people. And vibhava tanha is the opposite. These are people with extreme shyness, not wanting to exist as person, the desire to not be seen, to avoid becoming personal, fearing to be present and express oneself. I think this last happens a lot and these people tend to see their fear to exist as some spiritual quality of egolessness,. In stead to come more out of the prison, they find all kinds of great reasons to remain imprisoned. They have to much desire not to exist)
Some think that vibhava tanha relies on some notion of an atta that will be destroyed at death, but i have not seen this explanation in the suttas and do not believe so.
I believe, vibhava tanha is just the wish to be without pain, suffering and not feel and perceive anything anymore. In other words, when one has vibhava tanha one also does not see another escape from suffering then the cessation of all feelings, perceptions, consciousness etc. I do not believe it is not vibhava tanha if one aims at the cessation of the khandhas with the view that no atta is destroyed.
Buddha teaches that the escape from suffering is the end of tanha. Not taken up these khandhas as me, mine and my self which is the peace and coolness of Nibbana.
It may look the same but i feel it is very different when 1. someone is focussed on the cessation of tanha, cooling down, extinguishing the inner fires, purity, OR, 2. the cessation of the khandhas.
I know that from the first follows the last at death, but still it is very different if one practices Dhamma for aiming purity, cessation of tanha, detachment OR the cessation of khandha’s. Like MN2 and many suttas say; we must focus on the abandoning of tanhas, letting go, relinguish them, end them.
Thanks you, appreciated. You too. I appreciate we are still in contact.
One who sees truly like this, with right wisdom, gives up craving for continued existence, while not looking forward to ending existence. Nibbana (Extinguishment translates Sujato) comes from the ending of all cravings; fading away and cessation with nothing left over.
Looking forward to ending existence is not the Path. The ending of craving with nothing left over of craving that must be the focus and not looking forward to end existence. That is still a difference. If one sees this life as only misery, suffering, one looks forward to end existence and this is not the Path.
The Three marks are nicely explained in Patisambhidamagga i feel.
if one attends with a perception of impermanence, the sign is correctly understood. All formations are seen as impermanent. There is no doubt about this. Consciousness enters the signless.
if one attends with a perception of dukkha, appearances to the mind are correctly understood. All formations are seen as dukkka, not desirable, not bringing peace, appearances are correctly understood. There is no doubt about this. Consciousness enters now the desireless. One just does not desire any formations anymore.
If one attends with a perceptions of not-self, appearance and sign are correctly understood. All conditioned phenomena are seen as not-self. Doubt is abandoned.
Mind enters emptiness.
So it are also ways to cut of any doubt in regard to formation and the conditioned in general.
They are called 3 gateways to liberation. The signless liberation, the desireless, and emptiness liberation. The signless, the desireless, the empty are ways to refer to asankhata dhatu.
The determination upon emptiness, the signless and the desireless is the determination upon the sublime goal, is said.
So, by using the three marks in a correct way the mind enters the unconditioned.
This is stabilizing.
Patisambidhamagga describes that it depends on someones abilities if one is more inclined to anicca, dukkha or anatta nupassana.
People who have great determination and faith faculty, they are in general inclined to take annica as gateway to liberation. The signless.
People who are naturally quite calm and have great abilities to concentrate they incline naturally to dukkha nupassana. They take the desireless gateway to liberation.
Anatta nupassana is seen as the means for those with great wisdom abilities. They take the emptiness gateway to liberation. By the way, sunnata nupassana and anatta nupassana are taught as the same.
The use of these three marks is that they function as gateways to liberation, according Psm.
They are meant in such a way that the mind enters gradually more and more the unconditioned element. It is said that the signless, desireless, emptiness can be someones first understanding of detachment dependend on which marks one is most inclined to. But it refers to the same dimension. It are not three different dimension, but one nibbana element.
It can be read in the Treatise on Liberation, if you like.
This is my theory on the development of ‘the three marks of existence’ doctrine:
The change from only the 5 clung-to Aggregates have the 3 characteristics (impermanence, stress and not-soul and the 5 Aggregates are only impermanent and not-soul) to even the 5 Aggregates have all three characteristics, probably happened in the oral period. So, we can find texts with the Buddha teaching the 3 Characteristics for all conditioned things. Because the First Noble Truth and ‘existence’ were interpreted in a physical way (contrary to the Buddha’s mental redefinition of key terms - 20120701 The Noble Language.pdf (2.5 MB)), the 5 Aggregates had to be understood as suffering in themselves (rather than only the 5 clung-to Aggregates as in the First Noble Truth) and the Buddha’s Full Enlightenment under the Bodhi tree had to be reinterpreted to ‘not quite full enlightenment, due to the 5 Aggregates’ (sa-upadi-sesa nibbana). So later tradition then could view his passing as ‘Parinibbāna’, vis the Mahā-parinibbāna-sutta. The 3 (universal) Characteristics are found in Dhammapada 277-9 and presented as the Path, even that seeing any one was the Path. https://suttacentral.net/dhp273-289/
This is a very different type of reflection as taught to Rahula and called ‘the only way to purification’ by the Buddha. https://suttacentral.net/mn62/
One of the very clear redefinitions: https://suttacentral.net/sn20.10/ https://suttacentral.net/mn105/
Definition: “Monks, in the dispensation of the noble ones ‘death’ is a synonym for the monk’s stepping down from the holy life. Deathly unpleasantness is a synonym for falling to some offence, for which he has to make amends by some declared suitable means.
sa-upadi-sesa nibbana could also simply mean, the partial enlightenment of a trainer, one who still has some upādāna, clinging, which for the Buddha would have happened between his realisation of Jhāna as the Middle Way, after recalling an experience as a young man, and his full Englightenment under the Bodhi Tree. We are not sure of the amount of time involved, but it would surely not be milliseconds, more likely days, weeks or months.
link to google doc the Noble Language, for the most up to date version:
In the end, even impermanence cannot be established as true, at least i do not think so. Think about a cloud. What is really a cloud? How many atoms of water vapour must condensate before we say that a cloud arises and exist? Suppose we do not yet see the cloud, does it also not yet exist? If one atom of condensed watervapour pops up in the sky is that that moment a cloud arises, even when it is not yet seen? Two? Hundred, 10110001?
When do we speak of the arising and existence of a cloud and when about its cessation? It is all not a given reality. Only in a coarse sense it always seems very easy to say that things arise, exist and cease to exist. But if one really moment for moment looks into it, all becomes vague.
But i believe this is also not really the goal. One can still make use of such tools as anicca to remedy other coarse perceptions, such as of nicca. Such perceptions, i feel, is not really about how things really are, but how they can be perceived at a certain moment and experienced as true for us. It is a wisdom that can be applied to remedy coarse perceptions that cause passion to arise.
I believe anicca, dukkha and anatta are not about how things really are in ultimate sense but how they are within our quit coarse conventional understanding of things.
How things ultimately really are is: rupa is rupa, vedana is vedana, sanna is sanna, sankhara is sankhara, vinnana is vinnana, Nibbana is Nibbana. There is no conceiving taking place (MN1).
I believe nicca, anicca, dukkha, sukha, atta, anatta are still part of the domain of a conceiving mind. A mind that relates to reality in a conceived way.
And within this anicca, dukkha, anatta function as remedies.
