Where does Vitakka and Vicara fit in Dependent Origination?

Where does Vitakka and Vicara fitting to Dependent Origination?
Is that after contact (Phasso)?
If you do not have Vitakka and Vicara, will there be vedana?

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According to this chart which cites MN18 vitakka vicāra are conditioned by vedanā.

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In the context of DO, they fit into the “Name” from “Name&form”

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Does this mean there is no Vedana in second Jhana? (ie: free from Vitakka and Vicara)

Vitakka and vicara is fitting into to Dependent Origination at sankhara (2nd condition).

The sankhara is defined as the kaya, vaci & citta sankhara (SN 12.2).

Katamekatama, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā? Tayome, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā—kāyasaṅkhāro, vacīsaṅkhāro, cittasaṅkhāro. Ime vuccanti, bhikkhave, saṅkhārā.

The ‘vaci sankhara’ is defined as ‘vitakka and vicara’ (in MN 44).

Assāsapassāsāassāsa kho, āvuso visākha, kāyasaṅkhāro, vitakkavicārā vacīsaṅkhāro, saññā ca vedanā ca cittasaṅkhāro

The common translation of ‘volitional formations’ is obviously a mistake.

When distracting thoughts (such as described in MN 20 Vitakka­saṇṭhāna Sutta) pop into the mind (nama) when meditating, these are the vitakka & vicara produced unvolitionally from ignorance.


As for the vitakka & vicara of jhana, if it is not tainted by ignorance, it does not arise at sankhara.

The vitakka & vicara of jhana, if it is not tainted by ignorance & if arising from the noble eightfold path, is not related to dependent origination because dependent origination is called the ‘wrong path’ (refer to SN 12.3).