Which is foremost - Dhamma or Vinaya?

Thankfully the Buddha didn’t actually teach about Pure Lands, so we don’t need to worry about this kind of irrelevant sexist content except as historical trivia which will ultimately be superseded by more accurate knowledge of early Buddhism.

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Sadhu Ayya, I think you are providing an example of very wise behaviour!

It is my impression that calls for modernization of the Vinaya (and, to be clear, I don’t regard reviving the Bhikkhuni order as a “modernization”, the possibility was there all along it seems to me! :smiley:) are most often driven by issues such as being able to drive to Dhamma talks, finding a job as a monastic in order to support their monastery etc… and while I think the work some of these monastics do in order to spread the Dhamma is outstanding, I think it is important to remember that the main purpose the Dhamma/Vinaya was designed is to bring the person practicing to full liberation, not necessarily as a missionary vehicle.
Hopefully this remembrance can provide an additional pointer for monastics when deciding on controversial issues.

So, I guess my message to monastics would be “Please, don’t worry too much about us laypeople! We are doing fine in this age of worldwide connectivity and can probably make do with online Dhamma talks if it means making sure you as monastics are maximizing your conditions towards liberation! This is what will ensure the lasting welfare and happiness of the people, the benefit, welfare, and happiness of gods and humans!”

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Yeah it does seem sexist, especially when you first read it. I won’t comment about it then, but I hope you can find a better solution than what I said. The Buddha doesn’t comment about Goloka Vrndaven either, and all we have there is Amor, Amor, Amor, and the most High Spiritual Practice (what’s that, Buddhism too? What’s the purpose of Buddhism? Where am I in this World? I just want beings not to to suffer and I honestly feel like a crybaby, the Saha world is filling back up again).

You bring up an important point, Giovanni. I too am of that opinion, and am sometimes a bit surprised of the extent some monastics will “go out of their way” to give Dhamma talks and so on. Although, I am very much still grateful of such efforts.

However, I’m also of the opinion that some event organizers not offering transportation, when having over a monastic give a Dhamma talk, can sometimes be part of the issue (although, maybe this is mostly from not knowing monks can’t use money, or others rules of a monastic). I think education is the key for this. :slight_smile:

However, I believe the issue here is not that monks will do a lot to teach Dhamma, but rather it is especially the cases where a monastic might slightly circumvent a rule to accommodate someone (for example, using a bicycle because no form of transportation was offered). If I were the person in that situation, seeing a monastic circumvent a rule, I would in part feel negatively responsible for that action.

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Re: feeling guilty about “circumventing a rule”

ALL of the monastics in the bicycle thread (I counted about six, one of whom is senior teacher with monk and nun students, and one of whom teaches Pali in a large monastery. Plus myself, although I had wanted to avoid that thread) support bicycle riding as not being an offence.

Which makes me wonder what purpose that guilt would serve, as not a single monastic here has proposed that the bicycle riders are actually evil heretics or even doing anything wrong.

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My apologies, Ayya, I thought Bhante was gender neutral like saying, “Sadhu Sadhu Sadhu” and that Ayya was a narrower term.

Thank you Ajahn. One thing I think really deserves highlighting is what an exceptionally good job he did. To my understanding, the Sangha is one of, if not the oldest non-hereditary organization of any kind on this planet. While there is some evidence of drift and perhaps conscious invention in the various sects’ monastic codes, overall the majority of the rules likely do come from the original source of the Buddha.

In a western context, the Vinaya was laid down about halfway between the Draconian Constitution in Athens (the origin of all Western written law systems, which said stealing a grape was punishable by death) and the Twelve Tables of roman law (which said a male head of household could kill anyone in his family at his discretion). Not only have the city state of Athens and the Roman Republic been defunct for centuries, even internally these systems did not last. And of course they were absolutely terrible rules.

By contrast, I don’t think any sensible person finds the Vinaya anywhere near as objectionable, and it has worked for the past 2,500 years.

There are minor Khandakha rules, like the ban on ordaining soldiers, that clearly have their origin in responding to the unskillfulness of the laity, not in promoting the skillfulness of the monks (the origin is the threat of generals coming in and massacring monks). I think all the rules, even the ones which do not serve a purpose of maintaining the virtue of monks, deserve credit and appreciation for getting the Sangha where it is today.

For laity, I think an appreciation for how amazingly successful these rules were as the foundation for a living institution should dwarf any petty feelings of, “From my armchair, it looks like another group is interpreting these rules incorrectly” or “I think the Buddha shouldn’t have laid down this rule.”

Of course, monastics who have to live with these rules are different - they must, as a practical matter, decide on interpretations and allowances.

I think that this is just a misapplication of separate domains of reasoning. It’s like if you joined a “convenience” club, dedicated to the overall goal of convenience. You met with everyone, and figured out that the best time to meet was 6:00PM on Tuesday. Then at 4:30 on Wednesday your schedule opens up unexpectedly, you’re coincidentally already in the area, and so you show up to the arranged meeting place, and say, “This would have been a really convenient time to meet. How hypocritical of this club to not meet now!”

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Hi Ayya,

With respect, I don’t think anyone is saying monastics are “evil heretics” if they were to ride a bicycle. I can’t speak for others, but the topic discussed was if bicycles are allowed according to the Vinaya, and my participation equally consisted in discussing if bicycles are accepted or not according to the Vinaya. I didn’t try to paint anyone as evil at all, but I simply kept to the discussion of the topic.

However, this is not what I was referring to in my previous post. Bicycles were just an example. My comment was similar to Giovanni’s, about how sometimes monastics “go out of their way” to give Dhamma talks and so on—even to the point of that affecting their practice, or from keeping all of the rules. Giovanni suggested that monastics shouldn’t give Dhamma talks and so to the point of that affecting their practice—which I said agreed with.

In such circumstances, if I were organizing a Dhamma talk, and would a monastic be encumbered to the point of it affecting their practice, or from keeping their rules—from lack of transportation, or for a similar reason—I would personally feel guilty.

I don’t know why this was interpreted in a negative light. If anything, I was simply sympathizing…

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In a monastic community, taking this line of approach (accusing monks and nuns of pacittiyas left, right and centre, or at least of promoting non-vinaya) would actually be highly inflammatory & would likely end in dispute.

(Monasteries, unlike this forum, however, do not give avenues for laypeople to issue vinaya judgement).

A pacittiya is a bad and wrong thing, and you have implied that anyone who drives or cycles to a function is committing a pacittiya.

I was trained in a “strict vinaya” community, and neither of those things (driving or cycling) would actually be confessed as pacittiyas. Not because we don’t know what the texts say, but maybe because we might actually know what we are doing? (Radical idea, I know?)

Those who have never sat through a patimokkha recitation could be a little bit more reserved with their judgement of others, please.

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I think you are taking this into direct and personal objections. A discussion about bicycles and Vinaya was posted on a public Internet forum—I simply participated in that discussion and quoted the Vinaya.

You are saying I actively said such monastics were committing a pācittaya—this is a false objection.

I’m not even sure how this very intense discussion between you and I has come about. I simply posted in this thread how I sympathized with monastic’s extensive efforts with giving Dhamma talks, and that event organizers should think a bit more about providing transportation—and you somehow took that negatively, and here we are now discussing in this thread the thread about bicycles.

You win. At this point, there is not much more I can say. As a monastic, you have much more influence over me. Even me simply replying to you will be looked down by other members.

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Please Ayya :pray: I am sure @samseva was well meaning in his comments and his intention was not to insult you or anybody.

Surely you allow that traditions that are equally knowledgeable of the texts can come to different interpretations when it comes to modern Vinaya controversies?

I really hope you did not take any criticism personally and I cherish your suggestions

Much metta :pray:

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The foremost is Buddha.
Dhamma comes next because it is for all four assemblies of the sangha and thus defines the unniversal mahasangha.
Vinaya comes third because it is only for the two monastic assemblies of the sangha.

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I’m here because of a YouTube video of Ajahn Nissarano on the topic of developing harmony. I know very little about the Vinaya since I’m a lay follower for now and monastic life is still some distance from me, so I would focus on the immediate problems at hand… defilements much.

I’m shocked to read about the disagreement towards… scissors? How does that link to discipline or support for the development of dhamma practice? Is it because the scissors is considered a luxury at the time of the Buddha?

And the bicycle. It does seem like if I get the chance to ordain, I had better plan the logistics way ahead :open_mouth: Any recommendations on Vinaya reading materials for beginners? I promise to get myself more educated on this and hopefully lay the foundation for future. :pray: