“Why am I afraid of that pleasure…” (MN36) – different translations

Discussion
1

“I thought: ‘Why am I afraid of that pleasure that has nothing to do with sensual pleasures and unwholesome states?’ I thought: ‘I am not afraid of that pleasure since it has nothing to do with sensual pleasures and unwholesome states.’ (From The Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha, translated by Bhikkhu Ñāṇamoli & Bhikkhu Bodhi)

“Why am I afraid of that pleasure which has nothing to do with the five senses nor with unwholesome things? I will not be afraid of that pleasure (of Jhana)!” (From The Jhānas, by Ajahn Brahmavamso)

2

Is there something you wanted to discuss? You posted this in the discussion category.

5 Likes
3

Hi Kumara

Can you please clarify if you are interested in a discussion (this is the Discussion Category) or if you are questioning the translation or what the point of your post is.

Thank you :slight_smile:

Kind regards
Alex (on behalf of all moderators)

5 Likes
4

I see where this discussion is going! :sweat_smile:

It turns out Ajahn Brahmavamso claims that the five senses cease in the first jhana, this claim is in stark contrast to the jhanas, as described in the suttas, where the senses are very much intact and can be utilized.

Just like you don’t see or hear with your physical eyes and ears in dreams, in the same way one can still see and hear during the jhanas.

The senses do not cease. Sensuality (kama) ceases.

Jhanas are actually superhuman states of immensely expanded perception and knowledge.

In the first jhana one shares perception with other beings in those corresponding rupa loka realms. Since metta is the underlying characteristic one feels a unity with all beings and not only unity with those one is sharing this perception with:

There are sentient beings that are diverse in body and unified in perception, such as the gods reborn in the Divinity’s host through the first absorption. - DN 15

This means that in the first jhana one dwells in a state of oneness together with other beings, which is such a vastly different perception compared to anything found in kama loka.

This is why meditators of other paths say that ”all is a unity” , ”we are all one”, ”there is only love (metta)” and so on.

It has its roots in actual experiences one can have, yet the Buddha says:

“How is it, Master Gotama: is all a unity?”

“‘All is a unity’: this, brahmin, is the third cosmology.”

Without veering towards either of these extremes, the Tathagata teaches the Dhamma by the middle….”

Perception alters even more in the three higher jhanas.

But the following makes it crystal clear that even in the fourth jhana all senses can be fully utilized:

“Well sir, at what point is a perfectly happy world realized?”

“It’s when, giving up pleasure and pain, and ending former happiness and sadness, a mendicant enters and remains in the fourth absorption.

There are deities who have been reborn in a perfectly happy world.

That mendicant associates with them, converses, and engages in discussion. It’s at this point that a perfectly happy world has been realized.”

“Surely the mendicants must lead the spiritual life under the Buddha for the sake of realizing this perfectly happy world?”

“No, Udāyī, the mendicants don’t lead the spiritual life under me for the sake of realizing this perfectly happy world. There are other things that are finer, for the sake of which the mendicants lead the spiritual life under me.” - MN 79

  1. A mendicant enters and remains in the fourth absorption.
  2. There are deities who have been reborn in a perfectly happy world.
  3. That mendicant associates with them, converses, and engages in discussion.

So the four jhanas clearly involves dwelling and interacting with other beings in various modes of perception: sharing the same perception as in the first jhana but diverse in body, or the same body but diverse perception or the same body and same perception as other beings:

There are sentient beings that are unified in body and unified in perception, such as the gods of universal beauty. - DN 15

  • None of the above would be possible if the five senses would cease in the way Ajahn Brahmavamso claims, as in the jhanas being ”dark” with no possibility of seeing, hearing and so on…

One also recollects past lives during jhana and not after emerging.

:folded_hands:

1 Like
5

Skimming through the book mentioned in the OP, ”The Jhānas, by Ajahn Brahmavamso”, I find the following claims in it:

The Five Senses are Fully Shut Off.
Another strange quality that distinguishes Jhana from all other experiences is that within Jhana all the five senses are totally shut down. One cannot see, one cannot hear, one cannot smell, taste nor feel touch. One cannot hear the sound of the birds, nor a person coughing. Even if there were a thunderclap nearby, it wouldn’t be heard in a Jhana. If someone tapped one on the shoulder, or picked one up and let one down, in Jhana one cannot know this. The mind in Jhana is so completely cut off from these five senses that they cannot break in.*

  • Although sound can disturb the first Jhana, the fact is that when one perceives the sound, one is no longer in

SUMMARY OF THE LANDMARKS OF ALL JHANAS
It is helpful to know, then, that within a Jhana:
1. There is no possibility of thought;
2. No decision making process is available;
3. There is no perception of time;
4. Consciousness is non-dual, making comprehension inaccessible;
5. Yet one is very, very aware, but only of bliss that doesn’t move; and
6. The five senses are fully shut off, and only the sixth sense, mind, is in operation.

These are the features of Jhana. So during a deep meditation, if one wonders whether it is Jhana or not, one can be certain it is not! No such thinking can exist within the stillness of Jhana. These features will only be recognized on emergence from a Jhana, using reviewing mindfulness once the mind can move again.

Ajahn Brahmavamso - The Jhanas

  • ”The Five Senses are Fully Shut Off.”

  • ”1. There is no possibility of thought;”

If the five senses were truly fully shut off and there is no possibility of thought then it would of course be impossible for a mendicant to associate, converse and engage in discussion with the deities when entering and remaining in the fourth absorption - MN 79

  • ”2. No decision making process is available;”

Surely it is mostly thanks to dispassion that one can decide to transcend even such a blissful state as a ”perfectly happy world”?

On top of that:

They understand: ‘If I were to apply this equanimity, so pure and bright, to the dimension of infinite space, my mind would develop accordingly. But that is conditioned.

“If I were to apply this equanimity, so pure and bright, to the dimension of infinite consciousness … nothingness … neither perception nor non-perception, my mind would develop accordingly. But that is conditioned.’

They neither make a choice nor form an intention to continue existence or to end existence.

Because of this, they don’t grasp at anything in the world. Not grasping, they’re not anxious. Not being anxious, they personally become extinguished.

They understand: ‘Rebirth is ended, the spiritual journey has been completed, what had to be done has been done, there is nothing further for this place.’ - MN 140

”this equanimity, so pure and bright” mentioned is the fourth jhana.

Those insights of impermanence and conditionality of the ayatanas, (arupa loka dimensions), leads to the insight:

”They neither make a choice nor form an intention to continue existence or to end existence.”

So only after truly knowing that all planes of existence are actually conditioned does one ”decide to neither decide or intend to end or continue existence”.

To neither make a choice nor form an intention to neither continue existence nor to end existence is in itself a choice based on insight.

  • ”3. There is no perception of time;”

There is in fact perception of time in the jhanas, the sole reason the beings in for example the first jhana in rupa loka see themselves as eternal is precisely due to the immense duration of such planes of existence. - MN 49

If there is no perception of time at all there is no way of seeing that such planes of existence are indeed conditioned.

One would just be stuck in the ”5. Yet one is very, very aware, but only of bliss that doesn’t move;”

MN 140 also specfically states:

If I were to apply this equanimity, so pure and bright, to the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, and develop my mind accordingly, this equanimity of mine, relying on that and grasping it, would remain for a very long time.’ - MN 140

But more importantly when recollecting past lives while in the fourth jhana there is indeed actual perception of time:

Furthermore, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, a mendicant enters and remains in the second absorption … third absorption … fourth absorption. This too is one of the finer things.
When their mind has become immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, flawless, rid of corruptions, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—they extend it toward recollection of past lives. They recollect many kinds of past lives. That is: one, two, three, four, five, ten, twenty, thirty, forty, fifty, a hundred, a thousand, a hundred thousand rebirths; many eons of the world contracting, many eons of the world expanding, many eons of the world contracting and expanding. They recollect their many kinds of past lives, with features and details. - MN 79

  • ”4. Consciousness is non-dual, making comprehension inaccessible;”

If comprehension is inaccessible how could the Buddha differentiate between ”unity of perception but diverse in body” from the first jhana to ’united in both perception and body” in the fourth jhana? - DN 15
:pray:

6

I thought this was just contrasting the unwholesome pleasures of the five senses with the possibly-wholesome pleasures involving only the sixth sense.

7

Yes, surely the issue of whether the five senses cease in jhana is separate from the issue of whether the happiness in jhana has anything to do with the five senses. The former has been a disputed point for millenia. The latter seems rather uncontroversial in Buddhist circles.

4 Likes
8

There are no indications whatsoever in any suttas that the ”The five senses are fully shut off”, on the contrary the whole basis for how the jhanas are described in the suttas relies on still being able to see, hear, think, make decisions and to comprehend.

Kama loka and sensual pleasures (kama) has been transcended, one is now in a totally different world - rupa loka, where one is still capable of seeing, hearing, thinking, making decisions and comprehending.

In fact even more so compared to while in kama loka.

If anything the jhanas actually expands the mind so one can comprehend such things that would otherwise be impossible to fully comprehend:

  • Past lives

  • The passing away and rebirth of other beings

  • Impermanence (!)

  • Knowledge of the ending of defilements.

  • The origin and cessation of suffering

That is why jhanas are said to be superhuman states.

Just such a thing a recollecting past lives also involves extremely traumatic experiences.

If one could not think or make decisions during jhana and only after emerging was, out of nowhere, flooded with tons of past lives of traumatic things like being killed or seeing and recognizing families/friends from a distant past and all those memories from those times resurfacing, one would most likely break down completely.

But if past lives recollection is made during jhana (which it is) one has such a vastly expanded mind that all those traumatic events from past lives are delt with and seen in a different light.

Also, to see the passing away and rebirth of other beings also involves seeing innocent beings getting murdered…

To see such horrific things unprepared would be a complete disaster.

Sure, the killers do end up in hell but hell in itself and what goes on there is still not a really pleasant place to witness:

The wardens of hell turn them upside down and throw them in a red-hot copper pot, burning, blazing, and glowing. There they’re seared in boiling scum, and they’re swept up and down and round and round. And there they suffer painful, sharp, severe, acute feelings—but they don’t die until that bad deed is eliminated. The wardens of hell toss them into the Great Hell.

Now, I don’t say this because I’ve heard it from some other ascetic or brahmin. I only say it because I’ve known, seen, and realized it for myself. - AN 3.36

Or maybe it is… :wink:

Also, if ”The five senses are fully shut off” and one is not able to see, hear, think, make decisions and to comprehend then I truly wonder how the following is even possible at all:

When their mind has become immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, flawless, rid of corruptions, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—they project it and extend it toward the creation of a mind-made body.

From this body they create another body—formed, mind-made, whole in its major and minor limbs, not deficient in any faculty. - DN 2

?:thinking:

But I’ll now let those who claim ”The five senses are fully shut off” to post their line of reasoning for coming to such conclusions.
:pray:

9

Sorry about that. I thought it’s clear enough. I’m presenting a major difference in the translations and invite people to comment.

10

Here in AN9.65 it seems that sensuality is defined as exactly the experience of the 5 senses the sixth sense being absent.

Numbered Discourses 9.65
Aṅguttara Nikāya 9.65
7. Mindfulness Meditation
7. Satipaṭṭhānavagga
Kinds of Sensual Stimulation
Kāmaguṇasutta
“Mendicants, there are these five kinds of sensual stimulation.
“Pañcime, bhikkhave, kāmaguṇā.
What five?
Katame pañca?
Sights known by the eye, which are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.
Cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā,
Sounds known by the ear …
sotaviññeyyā saddā …pe…
Smells known by the nose …
ghānaviññeyyā gandhā …
Tastes known by the tongue …
jivhāviññeyyā rasā …
Touches known by the body, which are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.
kāyaviññeyyā phoṭṭhabbā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā.
These are the five kinds of sensual stimulation.
Ime kho, bhikkhave, pañca kāmaguṇā.

To give up these five kinds of sensual stimulation you should develop the four kinds of mindfulness meditation. …”
Imesaṁ kho, bhikkhave, pañcannaṁ kāmaguṇānaṁ pahānāya …pe… ime cattāro satipaṭṭhānā bhāvetabbā”ti.

1 Like
11

Why not looking at how Buddha said in Pali. Maybe one can come up with different understanding as well.

Different translation is due to different views possibly from different perspective. Could be one wrong or both wrong, or both right depend on how they use the english language. But the pali source could never be wrong.

such as MN 14

And what is the gratification of sensual pleasures?
Ko ca, mahānāma, kāmānaṁ assādo?

There are these five kinds of sensual stimulation.
Pañcime, mahānāma, kāmaguṇā.
…
And what is the drawback of sensual pleasures?
Ko ca, mahānāma, kāmānaṁ ādīnavo?

It’s when a gentleman earns a living by means such as
Idha, mahānāma, kulaputto yena sippaṭṭhānena jīvikaṁ kappeti—
…
for the sake of sensual pleasures they don their sword and shield,
kāmahetu kāmanidānaṁ kāmādhikaraṇaṁ kāmānameva hetu asicammaṁ gahetvā,
…
resulting in death and deadly pain.
Te tattha maraṇampi nigacchanti, maraṇamattampi dukkhaṁ.

This too is a drawback of sensual pleasures apparent in the present life, a mass of suffering caused by sensual pleasures.
Ayampi, mahānāma, kāmānaṁ ādīnavo sandiṭṭhiko dukkhakkhandho kāmahetu kāmanidānaṁ kāmādhikaraṇaṁ kāmānameva hetu.

or MN 13

And what is the escape from sensual pleasures?
Kiñca, bhikkhave, kāmānaṁ nissaraṇaṁ?

Removing and giving up desire and greed for sensual pleasures: this is the escape from sensual pleasures.
Yo kho, bhikkhave, kāmesu chandarāgavinayo chandarāgappahānaṁ—idaṁ kāmānaṁ nissaraṇaṁ.

Might want to check DN 13

“In the same way, the five kinds of sensual stimulation are called ‘chains’ and ‘fetters’ in the training of the Noble One.
“Evameva kho, vāseṭṭha, pañcime kāmaguṇā ariyassa vinaye andūtipi vuccanti, bandhanantipi vuccanti.

also AN 6.63

However, these are not sensual pleasures. In the training of the Noble One they’re called ‘kinds of sensual stimulation’.
Api ca kho, bhikkhave, nete kāmā kāmaguṇā nāmete ariyassa vinaye vuccanti—

Also back to MN 14, when one achieved or reached rapture and bliss, Buddha said one will NEVER return to sensual pleasure. So what does it mean reached rapture and bliss, one needs to check 1st jhana or 2nd jhana formula. But true samadhi only arise from 2nd jhana onward.

noble disciple has clearly seen this with right wisdom, as long as they do not achieve the rapture and bliss that are apart from sensual pleasures and unskillful qualities, or something even more peaceful than that,
iti cepi, mahānāma, ariyasāvakassa yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhaṁ hoti, so ca aññatreva kāmehi aññatra akusalehi dhammehi pītisukhaṁ nādhigacchati, aññaṁ vā tato santataraṁ;
they can return to sensual pleasures.
atha kho so neva tāva anāvaṭṭī kāmesu hoti.

But when they do achieve that rapture and bliss, or something more peaceful than that,
Yato ca kho, mahānāma, ariyasāvakassa ‘appassādā kāmā bahudukkhā bahupāyāsā, ādīnavo ettha bhiyyo’ti—evametaṁ yathābhūtaṁ sammappaññāya sudiṭṭhaṁ hoti, so ca aññatreva kāmehi aññatra akusalehi dhammehi pītisukhaṁ adhigacchati aññaṁ vā tato santataraṁ;

they do not return to sensual pleasures.
atha kho so anāvaṭṭī kāmesu hoti.

rapture and bliss born of seclusion, 1st jhana
vivekajaṁ pītisukhaṁ paṭhamaṁ jhānaṁ

which has the rapture and bliss born of immersion, 2nd jhana
samādhijaṁ pītisukhaṁ dutiyaṁ jhānaṁ

So, Detached doesn’t mean lose the 5 senses, but these 5 senses become well purified, mind become detach from the 5 senses delights and bad qualities. So one can use the 5 senses without their senses delight defilement. (Aka Kamasava cease when one enter and live in 1st jhana or above).

That is how I have understood.

1 Like
12

Yes, the very same definition is found in MN 80

Kaccāna, there are these five kinds of sensual stimulation.

Pañca kho ime, kaccāna, kāmaguṇā.

What five?

Katame pañca?

Sights known by the eye, which are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.

Cakkhuviññeyyā rūpā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā,

Sounds known by the ear …

sotaviññeyyā saddā …pe…

Smells known by the nose …

ghānaviññeyyā gandhā …

Tastes known by the tongue …

jivhāviññeyyā rasā …

Touches known by the body, which are likable, desirable, agreeable, pleasant, sensual, and arousing.

kāyaviññeyyā phoṭṭhabbā iṭṭhā kantā manāpā piyarūpā kāmūpasaṁhitā rajanīyā—

These are the five kinds of sensual stimulation.

ime kho, kaccāna, pañca kāmaguṇā.

The pleasure and happiness that arises from these five kinds of sensual stimulation is called sensual pleasure.

Yaṁ kho, kaccāna, ime pañca kāmaguṇe paṭicca uppajjati sukhaṁ somanassaṁ idaṁ vuccati kāmasukhaṁ.

But with a little humility we would realize we are in no position to truly speak of sensuality and pleasure given that only arahants truly know since it the continues with:

‘From the senses comes sensual pleasure. Beyond sensual pleasure is the pleasure that surmounts the sensual, which is said to be the best of these.’”

Iti kāmehi kāmasukhaṁ, kāmasukhā kāmaggasukhaṁ tattha aggamakkhāyatī”ti.

“Kaccāna, since you have a different view, creed, and belief, then, unless you dedicate yourself to practice with the guidance of tradition, it’s hard for you to understand

“dujjānaṁ kho etaṁ, kaccāna, tayā aññadiṭṭhikena aññakhantikena aññarucikena aññatrayogena aññatrācariyakena—

the senses, sensual pleasure, and the pleasure that surmounts the sensual.

kāmā vā kāmasukhaṁ vā kāmaggasukhaṁ vā.

There are mendicants who are perfected, who have ended the defilements, completed the spiritual journey, done what had to be done, laid down the burden, achieved their own goal, utterly ended the fetter of continued existence, and are rightly freed through enlightenment.

They can understand

Ye kho te, kaccāna, bhikkhū arahanto khīṇāsavā vusitavanto katakaraṇīyā ohitabhārā anuppattasadatthā parikkhīṇabhavasaṁyojanā sammadaññāvimuttā te kho etaṁ jāneyyuṁ—

the senses, sensual pleasure, and the pleasure that surmounts the sensual.”

kāmā vā kāmasukhaṁ vā kāmaggasukhaṁ vā”ti.

Ven. Sujato writes:

The “pleasure that surmounts the sensual” (kāmaggasukha) is defined by the commentary as Nibbāna, which explains why the Buddha says below that only arahants can truly understand this saying (MN 80:14.8). | Compare with the passage on extracting cream of ghee, which uses parallel syntax (DN 9:52.1, SN 34.1:1.9, AN 4.95:4.1). Iti kāmehi kāmasukhaṁ, kāmasukhā kāmaggasukhaṁ tattha aggamakkhāyatī”ti.

But one could actually translate it a little differently than ”pleasure that surmounts the sensual”.

kāmaggasukhaṁ should be, given the context of the sutta:
”The peak pleasure of sensual desire” or ”supreme sensual bliss”.

the senses, sensual pleasure, and the pleasure that surmounts the sensual.
kāmā vā kāmasukhaṁ vā kāmaggasukhaṁ vā.

  • Since when is kāmā ”the senses”?

It ought to be pleasure, right?

Like: kāmā citrā madhurā “pleasures are manifold and sweet”

”The senses” are manifold and sweet??? :wink:

Anyhow kāmaggasukhaṁ is as mentioned:
The peak pleasure of sensual desire or supreme sensual bliss.

kāma = sensual desire or pleasure

agga = peak, summit, highest point (sometimes also goal/end)

sukhaṁ = happiness/bliss

So Nibbāna is likened to supreme sensual bliss or the peak pleasure of sensual desire.

  • But then again only arahants understand this so all we can do is meditate, strive for liberation and maybe not shut off the senses completely while doing so! :smiling_face::folded_hands:
13

Hi!

The phrase is sukhaṁ aññatreva kāmehi, with the key word being kāmehi. According to the earliest, canonical commentaries, the word can denote two things:

(1) sensual desire [i.e. subjective kāma]
(2) experiences of the five senses [objective kāma]

(These are respectively called kilesa-kāma and vatthu-kāma.)

Now, what does kāmehi refer to in the phrase? According to the commentaries, both are abandoned in the jhānas. Other commentaries seem to point mostly at the objective kāma.

Both translators you mentioned do intend the objective kāma as well, although translated differently. Still others (not mentioned) think kāma refers only to the subjective side.

If you ask me, the suttas do indeed mean the objective vatthu-kāma in this context. I won’t explain why now. That would take too long. However, I would translate something like “five sense objects” or “five sense experiences” rather than “five senses”. It refers to sights, sounds, etc; not to the eye, ear, etc. (Although pragmatically this difference doesn’t really matter to the meditator.)

In defense of Ajahn Brahm, note that in MN80 (quoted earlier) Ven. Sujato also translates kāmehi as “senses”:

From the senses (kāmehi) comes sensual pleasure (kāmasukha).

It is necessary to translate kāmehi here in the objective sense, not the subjective one, because snsual pleasure doesn’t come from sensual desire but from the objective kāma (however we translate it). See also the context, the earlier explanation in the same sutta:

The pleasure and happiness that arises from these five kinds of sensual stimulation [i.e. sights, sounds, etc] is called sensual pleasure.

The point of the phrase in question is, the pleasure of the jhānas is not of these five kinds but a mental pleasure. I believe both translators you mentioned try to convey this idea, although with different translations. For example, Ven. Bodhi noted that the happiness (sukha) of the jhanas is actually mental happiness, identical with somanassa.

Hope that helps. :slightly_smiling_face:

6 Likes
14

Greetings Ven. @Sunyo! :pray: :slightly_smiling_face:

There are way too many instances in the suttas indicating that the experiences of the five senses do not in fact cease in the jhanas in the way Ajahn Brahm claims in his books about the jhanas.

I pointed out several in my posts above.

In MN 79 no distinction is ever made between entering and remaining in the fourth absorbtion (jhana) and rupa loka.

They are one and the same.

That is why it says a mendicant can associate, converse and engage in discussion with the deities when specfically entering and remaining in the fourth absorption.

Without any senses, thoughts, decision making and comprehension (already claimed to have ceased in the first jhana) how could any of that described in MN 79 ever take place in the fourth jhana?

Also, the very nature of perception and form in rupa loka where one is unified in perception with other beings but are diverse in form or diverse in perception but unified in form and so on, indicates that there is more to the jhanas…

Not only that but the following and many other things would also be 100% impossible without the senses, thoughts, decision making and comprehension:

When their mind has become immersed in samādhi like this—purified, bright, flawless, rid of corruptions, pliable, workable, steady, and imperturbable—they project it and extend it toward the creation of a mind-made body.

From this body they create another body—formed, mind-made, whole in its major and minor limbs, not deficient in any faculty. - DN 2

(The creation of a mind-made body does not take place in Kama Loka)

  • All in all I trust the Buddha when he says that only arahants understand the senses, sensual pleasure and the highest sensual bliss, kāmaggasukha (Nibbāna). - MN 80

Just like we don’t see and hear with our physical senses in dreams, exactly in the same way can one still see and hear during jhanas.

  • Surely both clairaudience and clairvoyance have to be taken into account when it comes to the jhanas?

:pray:

15

The translation as “the senses” doesn’t make sense to me. The texts are clear that it’s pleasing sights etc we are to turn away from, rather than just “sights”.

1 Like
16

Sutta states that arahants understand, your statement is only arahants understand. See the difference?

MN14 mentions a noble disciple who has clearly seen the gratification and drawback of sensual pleasures.

Sensual pleasures give little gratification and much suffering and distress, and they are all the more full of drawbacks. So, Mahānāma, even though a noble disciple has clearly seen this with right wisdom, as long as they do not achieve the rapture and bliss that are apart from sensual pleasures and unskillful qualities, or something even more peaceful than that, they can return to sensual pleasures. But when they do achieve that rapture and bliss, or something more peaceful than that, they do not return to sensual pleasures.

17

The sutta says they (as in arahants) can understand ”the senses, sensual pleasure, and the pleasure that surmounts the sensual.”

Only arahants can understand kāmaggasukha but naturally also have greater insights than anyone else regarding both kāmā & kāmasukhaṁ.

Your quote has to do with noble disciples and the jhanas, even putthujjanas who enter all the jhanas have clearly seen the gratification and drawback of sensual pleasures.

I’m pointing out that only arahants have an all-encompassing insight into kāma, kāmasukhaṁ and kāmaggasukhaṁ.

Do you see the difference? :wink::folded_hands:

  • :bodhileaf: A noble disciple (ariyasāvakassa) is not on par with an arahant. :bodhileaf:

Given the rapture and bliss of the jhanas and how the fourth jhana is even said to be ”a perfectly happy world” maybe one does not return to sensual pleasures but…

And what are the five higher fetters? Lust for form (Rūparāgo) lust for the formless, conceit, restlessness, and ignorance.

So there is no more kāmā but instead lust for those blissful realms in rupa loka.

If we take this into consideration, only arahants truly understand everything regarding kāma, kāmasukhaṁ and kāmaggasukhaṁ.

But I agree with you, of course both noble disciples and non-buddhists have clearly seen the gratification and drawback of sensual pleasures - in that sense not only arahants know. :+1:

  • So since people of all types of spiritual paths can enter the jhanas the question then is: How many non-buddhists describe the jhanas as no vision, no hearing, no light, no thoughts, no other beings…?
18

In the case of Christian contemplative literature, it’s virtually a commonplace that whereas the lower grades of contemplative prayer (the anussatis, if you like) merely quieten the senses, mystic union immobilises them. The Greek fathers called it anairesis tōn aisthēseōn, “abrogation of the senses”.

Saint Symeon the New Theologian held that this state was a foretaste of resurrected life: the senses fall away so that the spirit can “see” the unseeable Light, while Pseudo-Dionysius regarded it as a momentary participation in the divine “darkness” where God dwells beyond all sense.

3 Likes
19

Here, Bhikkhu Sunyo mentioned:

This means, the sixth sense -mind- is intact.

And also, the interactions made in manomaya body uses mind-base instead of the 5 bases for apparatus, in this framework.

An example would be being in deep meditation and experiencing an incense being burnt, while someone else was pooping in your physical presence. You don’t notice the smell of the poop but you smell the incense in your mind-made body. Therefore, your “real” five senses are shut down, but your mindmade senses can operate independently, experiencing a different substrate.

20

Greetings venerable! :slightly_smiling_face::folded_hands:

Yes the stilling of the senses and mind is common place among all paths given that plenty have, just like buddhists, seen the gratification and drawback of sensual pleasures.

So of course there ought to be a moment of stillness and darkness while meditating prior to entering the light of the jhanas.

Obviously those ascetics saying ”all is a unity” with metta to all, comes from the first jhana - But do really they describe the same state of unity as no seeing, no hearing, no other beings?

Maybe the darkness Pseudo-Dioysius talks about is not the jhanas at all but arupa loka that he mistakenly attributed to God! :sweat_smile:

Daoists who strive for the formless realms as their goal mention darkness too… :wink:

Hi Dogen! :slightly_smiling_face:

But what I’m actually pointing out is that if there is no vision, no hearing, no light, no thoughts, no decision making nor comprehension during jhana while simultaneously it is during jhana that one creates the mind-made body..eh, how does one go about doing such a thing?:joy: