Why can't Tathagata be defined with Khandas? by Bhante Sunyo

I previously deleted the earlier thread for seeing it turned into a sad flaming ordeal, but Bhante @Sunyo was gracious enough to type a reply to me in PM, and with his blessings I’m sharing his insightful reply:


Thanks @Dogen, for bringing this up.

I wasn’t aware Ven. @Sujato changed his translation of the Yamaka Sutta. However, I am not convinced we’re dealing with a “label use of the nominative”, as the venerable notes. It seems to me that ti goes with the verb samanupassati to indicate how things are regarded. Essentially, it indicates a thought, which is a standard use of ti.

The Pali manuscripts differ a bit, but let’s take the CST4 (Burmese) version:

vedanaṃ ‘tathāgato’ti samanupassasi? (SN22.85)

Ven Sujato translates this as “do you consider that the label ‘realized one’ applies to feeling?” But we can compare it to:

vedanaṃ ‘etaṃ mama, esohamasmi, eso me attā’ti samanupassati (e.g. MN22)

We wouldn’t translate this as something like “he considers that the label ‘this is mine etc’ applies to feeling”. Instead, the idea is that “he regards feeling as ‘this is mine etc’”. Similarly for the Yamaka Sutta.

Ven Sujato’s old translation seems better: “Do you regard the Realized One as feeling?” Ven Bodhi translates similarly, but I think rightly turns the two words around: “Do you regard feeling as the Tathāgata?” I have: “Do you regard feeling to be a Truthfinder?” which means the same but I think is a bit clearer. It also aligns with the parallel at SA104, where the Buddha just asks: “Is feeling the Tathāgata?”

The Yamaka Sutta also mentions other relations between the aggragates and the Tathāgata. But I think these should be translated in similar ways.

Now, on your three options of interpreting these matters, @Dogen.

You quoted Ven. Ñanavira, who argues that

the reason why the Tathāgata is not to be found (even here and now) is that he is […] free from reckoning as [the aggregates]. This is precisely not the case with the puthujjana, who, in this sense, actually and in truth is to be found. (Clearing the Path, p44)

But this is not how the Yamaka Sutta itself explains the matter. The reason is not that the Tathāgata himself is free from reckoning as/identifying with the aggregates. The Tathāgata is not “to be found” by Yamaka (or whatever third person) because it’s Yamaka who is free from identifying a Tathāgata. And if Yamaka (or whoever) is free from such identifying, then they won’t identify anybody as an entity, including the putthujjanas.

We can also ask, how could Yamaka know whether other people are enlightened or not? If he knows, then how? And if he doesn’t know, how would he still “find” a putthujana but not a Tathāgata?

Ñanavira further states

the question [in MN22] whether saccato thetato [“actually and truly”] a ‘self’ is to be found, must be kept clearly distinct from another question [in SN22.85–86] whether saccato thetato the Tathāgata (or an arahat) is to be found.

But this is difficult to uphold, considering the similar context of anattā and the unique, near-identical wording in both cases. Further, the four notions about a Tathāgata after death arise from taking the aggregates as a self. (SN44.8) Just like any view of self, they stem from sakkāyadiṭṭhi. (SN41.3) Also, in SN5.10 Vajirā similarly says: “there is no [inherent] being to be found”. The nonexistence of an inherent being applies to everybody, including putthujjanas.

So of your three options, I think the third applies: the question about the Tathāgata is essentially the same as that about the self.

But you’re right: the question then arises why the matter is usually phrased in terms of the enlightened beings (tathāgatas) and not beings in general. I’m not sure. Perhaps it is incidental, indeed.

Or perhaps questions about beings in general are better answered conventionally. When asking about the rebirth (or non-rebirth) of a non-enlightened beings, it’s more pragmatic to talk about things like karma, instead of explaining that ultimately there is no real being as such.

In DN9 the Buddha even speaks about rebirth using the term attā. He then explains: “These are merely the world’s conventional labels, words, expressions, and designations, which I use without misapprehending them." Now, DN15 says that those who don’t hold the four views about the Tathāgata after death “know the extent of language and the limits of language, the extent of words and the limits of words, the extent of designations and the limits of designations”. This similarity again indicates that the four views about the Tathāgata are views of self. Both ‘self’ and ‘Tathāgata’ are just labels. We can use them conventionally, but they don’t exist as beings-in-themselves.

The Pali commentaries are aware that the term ‘Tathāgata’ refers specifically to the enlightened ones. But interestingly, they typically reframe these matters in terms of a being. However, by this they don’t mean all beings in general; they mean a being-taken-as-self, like that mentioned by Vajirā. For example, the commentary to the Yamaka Sutta clarifies that Yamaka wrongly takes ‘Tathāgata’ to be a “real, inherent being” (saccato thirato satte). Such a being “is not found to actually or really exist (saccato thetato) even while alive”, let alone after death.

The commentary further explains:

If Yamaka would have thought, ‘only produced things (saṅkhāras) arise and cease, only a process of produced things becomes nonexistent’, then it would not be a misconception but knowledge in line with the Buddha’s instructions. But because he thought, ‘a being is annihilated and destroyed’, it becomes a misconception [of annihilationism]. […]

‘What is suffering has ceased’ means that the only thing that ceased is suffering. Apart from that there is no being which ceases.

This is reminiscent of MN22, where the Buddha is accused of asserting the annihilation of a really existent being. He responds: “In the past and also now, I assert only suffering and a cessation of suffering (i.e. not the existence and annihilation of a self).” He also says this to Anurādha in SN22.86, which mentions the tetralemma on the Tathāgata after death.

About the tetralemma, the commentary to SN44.3 states:

There is just form. Apart from this form, there is not something else called a being. When there is form, there is just the name [‘Tathāgata’]. The explanation is the same for the other aggregates of feeling and so forth. The reason the Buddha does not affirm any of the propositions [about a Tathāgata after death] is that, when form and so forth are looked into, no essence (svabhāva) is obtained.‍

The subcommentary clarifies:

“What is rejected? The self supposed by outsiders, spoken of here [by the name] ‘Tathāgata’. The essence that is not obtained is a self.”

This is in line with the commentary to the Udāna (PTS edition):

“In ‘after death a Tathāgata still exists’, the word ‘Tathāgata’ refers to a self (attā).”‍

So that’s the Theravādin view. But the text of most other traditions, both early and late, also indicate in various ways that the four propositions about the Tathāgata after death all assume a self/soul. It would make for a long post to illustrate this! :slight_smile: Suffice to say, this has been the default interpretation of these matters.

To me, it seems that this is in essence also the Prajnaparamita/Madhyamika interpretation. In the MMK Nāgārjuna says, in explaining the tetralemma: "How can what is without a self (anātman) be a [inherent] Tathāgata?”‍ And Chandrakirti says:

It should be understood that all five theses [about a Tathāgata with relation to the aggregates, as in SN22.85–86] are really included in the thesis concerning identity and otherness. Nāgājuna deals with all five theses because the problem of the perfectly realized one [Tathāgata] is cognate with that of the permanent personal self. (Prasannapadā 435, translation Sprung)

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I have only one thing to add to Bhante’s amazing analysis:

Indeed, since the framing is a response to a specific inquiry, that is: Does Tathagata still exist after parinibbana?

If, on the other hand, if a puthujjana was to be found true and actually (as per Ven. Ninavira), then I don’t see why a puthujjana identifying himself as a puthujjana would be a wrong view.

He could say “I am puthujjana, this is my body, this is my rupa” etc.

However, even as we use my self conventionally, Sariputra does use the same rhetoric framing reserved for Tathagata:

(puthujjana) regard form as self, self as having form, form in self, or self in form.

Thank you for the much detailed reply, bhante. :folded_hands:

:lotus:

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SN22.87:

“That’s Māra the Wicked searching for Vakkali’s consciousness, wondering:
“Eso kho, bhikkhave, māro pāpimā vakkalissa kulaputtassa viññāṇaṁ samanvesati:
‘Where is Vakkali’s consciousness established?’
‘kattha vakkalissa kulaputtassa viññāṇaṁ patiṭṭhitan’ti?
But since his consciousness is not established, Vakkali is quenched.”
Appatiṭṭhitena ca, bhikkhave, viññāṇena vakkali kulaputto parinibbuto”ti.

If Vakkali had not been an arahat, then both during his lifetime and after his death it would have been possible to find that which is appropriated as ‘mine’—and it was through the appropriation of this that the view ‘I am Vakkali’ arose—and a pointing to this appropriated thing would have been equivalent to a pointing to the Vakkali. In this case, Mara was searching for consciousness, and if he had found an appropriated consciousness—the consciousness whose appropriation, as the living being developed and its capacity for reflection grew, would ultimately lead to the emergence of “I am the one who was Vakkalī in a past life”—then he would have found Vakkalī.

In other words, the very fact that the notion ‘I am’ exists implies the existence of appropriated aggregates, since this ‘I am’ could not have arisen had ‘this is mine’ not arisen first. Find this “mine” and you will find a reaction such as “That’s me. Don’t touch me!”—you will find something to hook onto and torment.

Therefore, from the perspective of a person with the right views, beings cannot be found; but in practice, with the relevant abilities such as those of Mara, only arahants and the Buddha cannot be found.

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Alright, interesting angle. :slight_smile: Thanks for the comment, Sasha.

Though I feel like this runs into the issue that, in your case, it seems the appripirator wouldn’t be deluded to say “I am” or “This is mine”. Yet, these are always delusions.

In other words — if what you say is true, why is it wrong for appropiration to be self conscious and declare “I am”? Indeed, it would only make sense to declare as much. :slight_smile:

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Thanks for that Dogen, I think in the original thread, it wasn’t actually clear what was being referred to? But here I see there is a reference to the Yamaka sutta, which makes sense to me now. I also like Bhante Sunyo’s translation of Truthfinder for Tathagata, it has a nice ring to it, thanks again. :anjal:

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That’s a particular way to interpret the establishing of consciousness. I don’t think it’s corrrect, though. Afaik, it’s generally taken to refer to consciousness going to another life. Since Vakkali was enlightened, his consciousness did not get “established” in another realm.

In an Ekottarika parallel, Māra wonders where Vakkali’s consciousness was established (識為何所在), in what realm it was reborn and where it had travelled on to (在何處生遊), whether he had become human or non-human, a god or spirit or such.‍ Another parallel renders it as ““where his consciousness was reborn” (識神當生何處)

ANyway, I don’t see how it answers the question. Do you mean that like Mara, in order to know whether somebody is a putthujjana or not, we need to try and find where they are reborn?

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There is no appropriator in a sense that the appropriation happens as a result of the ignorance — it’s not a matter of choice: if there are no right views, there is appropriation. You don’t even have to have a view or even ability to form views for the appropriation to be present: the absence of the right view is enough. The full fledged notion of ‘I am’ — the self view — is the result of the appropriation: there is ‘I am’ because there is ‘my’, not the otherwise. And that self view requires a certain cognitive ability to be developed for it to be present. For example, toddlers and animals do not have that ability and do not have a self view, but still de facto act as self, even the most primitive animals are acting like self from the moment of their birth.

Noble disciples are also acting as selves — they act as a person and attend to others as persons as well — even though they do have the right view, because the awareness of the situation and mindfulness of the the right view is not always there. That means that noble disciples have a choice to act as self or not, but not a direct one, since to not act out of the mistake of the appropriation they have to not simply not act like self, but to restore the presence of the right view of the situation.

What I meant was that, according to the Sutta, it was possible for Mara to find Vakkali if Vakkali was not an Arahant. – It is possible for Mara to find and torture anyone, as an actual being who is not an Arahant or the Buddha. To find someone as an actual being would mean here that Mara be able to torture what he has found – the appropriated aggregates – as Vakkali, while getting a response as “I am Vakkali, you are torturing me!”.

Edit: Oh, and I am here only to try to clarify Ven. Nanavira’s point of view as far as I understand it, since he was quoted.

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Yes but my main question remains - if that were the case, appropiration declaring “I am” would not be a wrong view. “I am an ignorant being” would be a correct statement.

However, sakkayaditthi and moha say that “I am thus” or “I am” are wrong no matter what.

Do you see the conundrum? :slight_smile:

Because it is from the point of the right view, not from the actual point of view of an ignorant being. For an ignorant being, there is “I am”, and there is “He/she/they is/are”, and that being can also be found by other beings.

Ven. Nanavira:

The words saccato thetato, ‘in truth, actually’, mean ‘in the (right) view of the ariyasāvaka, who sees paṭiccasamuppāda and its cessation’.


Ven. Nanavira, (emphasis is my):

The assutavā puthujjana sees clearly enough that a chariot is an assemblage of parts: what he does not see is that the creature is an assemblage of khandhā (suddhasaṅkhārapuñja), and this for the reason that he regards it as ‘self’. For the puthujjana the creature exists as a ‘self’ exists, that is to say, as an extra-temporal monolithic whole (‘self’ could never be either a thing of parts or part of a thing).

The appropriation does not declare anything; it is not an actor, only a factor — a ‘parasite’, as Ven. Nanavira called it. The assumption of an actor’s existence is the result of the implicit assumption arising from misunderstanding that ‘if there is a “my”, then there cannot not be a “me”’, or ‘there is appropriation because there is a “me”, an appropriator, I am’.

The appropriation is the result of ignorance alone, and for it to be present, there is no need for an actor or appropriator of any kind; the absence of the right view is enough. This is simply how it is - the initial inevitable starting point of any being: if there are the five aggregates and there is no the right view, there is the appropriation of these aggregates - there is acting as self, there is kamma.

The initial starting situation of any person, be they a follower of the Buddha or not, is 'I am in the world. There is my. And there are other beings. I can find myself, I can find other beings, I can be found by other beings".

I hope I’m still on the right track with your question. :slight_smile:

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You are, and thanks for the elaboration, but I just don’t find it satisfying. :sweat_smile:

It seems, you say: That appropiration, putthajana, due to clinging, can be found in the khandas. Example: Mara finding a non arahat’s consciousness.

So simultaneously:

  • Identification is true (Dogen is a putthajana, Mara can find my consciousness, this is my khanda)
  • Identification is false (Sabbe dhamma anatta, sakkayadithi / moha fetters)

In this case, it would’ve been appropirate to declare “I am thus, I am my khandas, this consciousness is mine” (since Mara can find it). Yet, this is a false view.

For identity view / conceit to be false views, identification itself should be a mistaken epistemology.

I’m not sure if I’m spinning circles at this point but that’s the gist of it. :slight_smile:

Thanks again though for kindly elaborating.

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The appropriation is not in the aggregates, the appropriation is how aggregates are in the first place: the aggregates ether appropriated - pañc’upādānakkhandhā, or not appropriated - pañcakkhandhā. But this characteristic of being appropriated for the aggregates can be eliminated.

What can be found, according to the Right View, is the aggregates of both types. With the distinction that, in the case of pañc’upādānakkhandhā, to find such aggregates would also mean that you found a being. But that would be a being, not because there is an actual being to which these aggregates belong or a part of, but because that particular set of aggregates would change — behave — in a particular way (with lobha, dosa, moha), that it is like some kind of a being here present beside the aggregates, who the owner and the master of these aggregates. In the case of finding pañcakkhandhā (a living arahat), their behaviour would not be showing any signs of an assumed ownership and mastery behind them, or pointing towards the presence of such owner in any way. (See A Note on PS §22)

See SAKKĀYA.


Yes, these are simultaneously true, but in different contexts. The ‘identification is true’ for a non arahat, with the distinction that a noble disciple would understand that this is a result of the mistake and why. And yes, the ‘identification is false’ is true, but from the point of view of, and for, an arahat only — from the point of view of the right view.

For an ordinary person, the ‘identification is false’ is just an unprovable view, not how they understand and attend to their situation, unlike for an arahat, for whom it is a fact and how arahats are, and for noble disciples, who are able to prove that for themselves directly and personally.

So:

  • for a putthajana the ‘identification is true’ is true, but ‘identification is false’ is false;
  • for an arahat the ‘identification is true’ is false, but ‘identification is false’ is true;
  • for a noble disciple the ‘identification is true’ is false, but ‘identification is false’ is true as a directly provable view, but not as how they are themselves.

See MAMA, and espescially PHASSA.


Edit: Deleted the whole paragraph since it is incorrect:

And:

  • when there are pañc’upādānakkhandhā, there is ‘identification is true’ is true, ‘identification is false’ is false; a being can be found by putthajana, a ‘being’ can be found by a noble disciple and an arahat alike.
  • when there are pañcakkhandhā, ‘identification is true’ is false, but ‘identification is false’ is true, only putthajana can think that they can find a being, Mara can’t find a being, but there is no being, even in ’ ', for a noble desciple, when they are mindful of the right view, and for an arahat.
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But then, how is it that Mara (a non-ariya) can’t find the consciousness? :slight_smile:

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Hi Dogen,

I’m wondering if there’s a conflation of perspectives here.

From an ontological standpoint, Sabbe dhammā anattā is true/valid, whether there’s a direct realization of this or not. Similar to how the Buddha stated in SN12.20:
“…this law of nature persists, this regularity of natural principles, this surety of natural principles, specific conditionality.”
So the putthajana, in this sense, is always without a fundamental identity, whether they realize it or not.

However, from a direct experiential standpoint, Mara can locate a putthjana’s consciousness because of the presence of avijja and sakkāyadiṭṭhi. Although a delusion, the belief that “I” have or am consciousness is a real experience and Mara can find it because Mara is also an aspect of the deluded mind of a putthajana. It’s like the “subjective” confirmation of the “I” delusion.

So we may not have to logically choose between the two options. Both can be valid depending on which context we’re looking at, although the former is more fundamental.

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If we are talking about a living arahat, then Mara can find consciousness. However, he cannot find consciousness when there is literally none to be found, as in the case of Vakkali, where there are no new aggregates after death. When it comes to a living arahat or the Buddha, Mara can find consciousness. After finding it, he mistakenly believes that he has found a being and behaves towards the arahat as he would towards an ordinary person, only to be disappointed in the end.

P.S. I have edited my previous post by deleting the paragraph that contained mistakes.

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Yes, but I think we’re overlooking the most obvious fact that Buddha’s form can also be located conventionally, since people attend to him all the time ! :smiley:

But I digress. I thank you, @Jasudho and @Sasha_A for the interesting PoVs. Much to think about. :slight_smile:

And also, I think from this discussion there appeears to be a fork where on one hand, Ven. Ninavira’s exegesis seems correct, and on the other, Mayajala Sutra. It’s too nebulous for me to formalise it in an argument as of yet, but I’ll try to come back to it later @Sphairos :slight_smile:

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Can gold be identified? I think so, based upon its Au atoms. But that does not mean that this gold nugget, composed of Au atoms, does not decompose and exist in some absolute manner (it is still anatta).
But there is something that makes gold gold. If gold cannot be identified would it not be a meaningless word?

Identity is also used in such a meaning. That what distinguished people. I do not think it has any relation to atta. Also, every arahant has still a person identity in this sense. They can be distinguished and not only by body but also by different character and mind processes. Although they all have no lobha, dosa moha rooted mindprocesses.

If Tathagata cannot be identified, why use that word? Then it is merely an empty meaningless concept. I do not believe this is meant in the sutta’s.

I think it is more like this that the Tathagata is identified by its extreme flexible nature. Can become whatever he wants. Can even turn into the fire element or water element, if he would wish. A sutta tells a realised pupil arose and burned the body in the air. A Tathagata can become a deva, human, whatever. He can enter cessation and also the world of khandha’s. This is his freedom and because his freedom he cannot be defined with khandha’s, defined as beyond khandha’s, in the khandha’s. He can be whatever he wants. That is why he cannot be found as real in this very life.
If we pinpoint him we do discredit his freedom.

If Tathagata cannot be identified, why use that word? Then it is merely an empty meaningless concept. I do not believe this is meant in the sutta’s.

I do not think the alternative is between a findable essence and a meaningless word. A designation can still function meaningfully without naming some real underlying self or essence. That seems much closer to what is at stake in SN 22.85 and in Bhante @Sunyo’s point about designation and the limits of language.

So, as I understand it, the issue is not that the Tathāgata cannot be identified because he is too fluid or too free to be pinned down. That shifts the discussion away from the aggregate analysis itself. Rather, once form, feeling, perception, formations, and consciousness are no longer taken as “mine,” “I,” or “self,” the assumption that there must be something that can be identified as the Tathāgata in an ultimate sense is already mistaken.

Before parinibbāna, “Tathāgata” is not meaningless. One can still say, in an ordinary and conventional way, “the Tathāgata teaches,” “the Tathāgata walks,” and “the Tathāgata speaks.” But that is not the same as saying that anything in or apart from the aggregates can be identified as the Tathāgata in an ultimate sense. So the point is not freedom of transformation, but the collapse of the assumption that there must be some identifiable essence there to begin with.

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What still seems unresolved to me is why the issue becomes especially sharp in the case of the Tathāgata after parinibbāna, if it is not really distinct from the problem of self. My impression is that, before parinibbāna, ordinary speech still retains a footing in the present aggregates, so the difficulty is easier to miss. After parinibbāna, that footing falls away, and the limits of designation become harder to overlook.

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That shouldn’t be mysterious. Oridinary man is interested in the ontological status of the perfect one after death, more simply, what happens to him after death.

But since the Buddha subordinated ontology (bhava) or being to ignorance, and Tathāgata is entirely free from ignorance, the question has no answer, since it is done under assumption that Tathāgata will die. But nibbana is the cessation of being here and now, such notions I am, I was born, do not apply to Tathāgata. They can apply to objectively seen certain individual -impermanent set of aggregates so Sutta says, as long as the body last, gods and humans can see Tathāgata, but regarding subjective experience of liberated consciousness;

“Bhikkhus, when the gods with Indra, with Brahmā and with Pajāpati seek a bhikkhu who is thus liberated in mind, they do not find [anything of which they could say]: ‘The consciousness of one thus gone is supported by this.’ Why is that? One thus gone, I say, is untraceable here and now.266

MN 22

I can see the force of that argument, especially the thought that people naturally become preoccupied with what happens to the Tathāgata after death. Still, as I read the suttas, they suggest a more specific point. In SN 44.1, SN 22.86, and MN 72, the issue is not simply curiosity about what happens after death. Rather, the inquiry itself already assumes that the Tathāgata can be reckoned in relation to the five aggregates, whereas those texts deny that the Tathāgata can rightly be identified in those terms, even in the present life. MN 22, too, in presenting the Tathāgata as untraceable here and now, points in the same direction rather than toward some surviving subjective consciousness. It still seems possible to me, though this goes somewhat beyond what the suttas explicitly say, that the issue becomes especially sharp after parinibbāna because the ordinary way of thinking no longer has even the living person as a point of reference. If so, this may be part of the pedagogical force of framing the issue in this way, since it brings the questioner up against the limits of the assumptions built into the inquiry.