Why Devadatta Was No Saint

Ahh! We are discussing non-returner! :heart:

Thanks for the explanation. Now I understand. There are two people in the sutta: Ghaṭīkāra and Jotipala. For me, Ghaṭīkāra was the most helpful for study. And it was Ghaṭīkāra who was the non-returner. Ghaṭīkāra was also a layperson like me.

The practice for non-return requires a deep dissatisfaction with the rewards of the world. Ghaṭīkāra was the lay non-returner. Ghaṭīkāra was also Buddha Kassapa’s chief attendant. Studying this sutta was very helpful to me. I had to ask myself questions like, “would I, as a layperson allow the Buddha to take my roof for himself?”

Personally, the prospect of returning inspires me to practice harder. :scream_cat:

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Thank you for clarifying the misunderstanding! :pray:

Beautiful response :slightly_smiling_face:

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It sounds like there is some uncertainty about the grounds for Devadatta’s attempted schism. Do you have any confidence that the Pali Canon account is accurate?

Why not?

Pali:

  1. āraññikā
  2. piṇḍapātikā
  3. paṁsukūlikā
  4. rukkhamūlikā
  5. macchamaṁsaṁ (not to eat meat and fish)

Here’s the Mulasarvastivada version.

  1. dadhikṣīraṁ (not to eat milk and curd)
  2. māṁsaṁ (meat)
  3. lavaṇaṁ (salt)
  4. dīrghadaśāni vastrāṇi (to wear robes with long fringes, as opposed to the Buddha’s trimmed fringes.)
  5. grāme vastavyaṁ (to live in the village)

It’s more different than i thought it would be! But this is the latest of the Vinayas, so it would be important to check others before drawing any conclusions.

The position on living in the forest appears to be reversed (if I understand the Sanskrit correctly.) The robes thing seems weird, but it’s pretty typical for different orders to distinguish themselves by their robes. The sanskrit text explains the reasons for each of these, but I can’t translate them without more time than I have.

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Do you think that there is any chance that the grounds for Devadatta’s attempted schism could have been doctrinal?

I ask because I can’t help but think the differences between the Atthakavagga and the Parayanavagga are significant and could represent a split in the sangha, perhaps a very severe one. Some kind of reconciliation was presumably made where these differences were tolerated.

If these two chapters are indeed very early as some think, it could explain inconsistencies we see in things like different lists for levels of samadhi and the long list of different things that constitute nibbana that are by no means obviously synonymous. It could also explain why no one can agree on what the split was about. Later generations of Buddhists simply accepted all these things and ceased seeing them as conflicting even if I see the differences as glaring.

Added later: it could also explain why they were relegated to the minor discourses and one vinya had him altering suttas.

This has no basis in any history. Come back home!

This is an interesting post and the matter of Devadatta is most curious to me. There are a few parts that I would like to remark on.

I suspect that Devadatta was advanced in learning and happened to rattle a few bhikkus who were where they are at relative to their development on the Path. Sometimes this difference in realisation can cause a grating or friction.

When another person points out wobbley conduct in another, such as choosing to eat meat when there are vegetarian options available, can sometimes rattle another person. Growth can be uncomfortable, and emotional, so some have the tendency to point the finger and blame the other. Sometimes friction can develop between two people, or even a single group of individuals who have different outlooks regarding a similar matter.

Devadatta, to me, is someone who rattled the hornets nest but likely not by intention. There is a tendency where people, not so achieved in realisation, starting out, seedlings on the path, lean on one another and develop a ‘strength in numbers attitude’ although their realisation may not be solid. They use the number of people in the group agreeing with them to hold to their position as ‘true’ and justify an emotional response against another person.

Everything else attested to the apparent Devadatta is simply hearsay, and the preoccupation with Devadatta highlights others focusing on the supposed faulty actions and omissions of others. The sole core focus is identifying the root causes of suffering and working to uproot them. The 4NT have always summarised the entire objective of the Buddhist Path.

In regards to the idea that “he caused a schism!”. He proposed ideas that he thought should be compulsory, they were accepted but not compulsory, and he then set forth on his own way where people joined him. Devadatta has no control over the minds of other living beings and it is their choice. To call this a schism is a matter of opinion. Wearing a robe, shaving the head and taking up a system of training does not necessarily guarantee realisation (yet may mislead the innocent layperson who is mystified by the outward displays of holiness). Still, the things I have witnessed, the ways I have seen people speak of him, are most certainly not in alignment with ethics or dhamma practice 101. An enemy, or a rival? Tathagata’s have no enemies or rivals. What is an evil doer other than one so ensnarred by ignorance that they fail to realise the womb-like nature of the Dhammadhatu - our very earth?

All we have is the supposed words and stories written by people who were neither Devadatta nor Siddhartha. It is unwise to blindly trust or to blindly reject but wise to gauge - to listen, to pay attention, to sense.

It is my view that Devadatta is a powerful individual who shun light on the dark patches of people. It is this alone, maybe paired with some arrogance and refusal to budge, that caused a witch-hunt against Devadatta. People are free to come and go from the Sangha as they please. Upon close inspection, one’s own mind is that which has the capacity to know. Siddhartha is only a symbol, a single individual who at the time caused a lot of talk because of what he realised, but the ultimate objective is recognition of the Dhamma & making that one’s refuge. Upon inspection, we find that the path is less about Siddhartha, and more about you.

The Dhammachakkapavattana Sutta lays out the whole mission objective. Identifying and ceasing that which gives rise to suffering.

The true Church isn’t one of four walls, but it is the Universal Church of Loving-kindness. The same applies for practitioners of the Buddhaway: they are threaded together by principles and realisation.

“Let none find fault with others; let none see the omissions and commissions of others. But let one see one’s own acts, done and undone." Verse 50.

Whether or not he was or was not a Saint is ultimately up to Devadatta to see, but I think the preoccupation on IS or ISN’T is a misguided focus because of the mission statement laid out in the Dhammachakkapavattana Sutta. The matter is between Siddhartha and Devadatta - for only they know what is and was occuring between them. Also sensible to refer to Verse 50. To be quite frank, whether or not he is X, Y or Z isn’t any of our business. Or, instead of ‘our’, I’ve learned at least to not overly concern myself about the business of others.

No, what Devadatta did is the literal definition of a schism according to the Vinaya.

So, in the discussions here on the forum we try to base things on the early Buddhist texts, if not the Early Buddhist Texts. And according to them, there are many situations that showed that the Buddha had several enemies. You are of course always welcome to not take the EBTs as authoritative personally.

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I do not rely on the hearsay of others and prefer to utilise my own faculty of reason. The reasoning for what I put forth is that no one here was there and witnessed what happened, and neither are they aware of other individuals psychological processes or motivations or intentions. People are relying on an account of something that may have never happened in the way supposedly presented.

He proposed new practices because he wished for stricter discipline & then went his own way. Others followed because they wished to do so and agreed. Others are free to do as they please. That is not intending to cause a schism. That is people using their own capacity to make a decision and then go with him. That doesn’t mean the group of practitioners are actually splintered as rivals and sworn enemies, they just go there own way, but they are still united by the thread of dhamma just they are looking at different parts of the same tapestry.

Like spoken about in the Flower Sermon, there is a wordless transmission that is not dependent on the written word that was transmitted to Mahakasyapa. I move away from speculation. Siddhartha, Devadatta, Avalokitesvhara, all real people will real prescenses. Buddha’s don’t have real enemies, they have people that think that they are a Buddha’s enemy.

Hmm. It would seem like you actually do. Which is fine, just be honest about it. You are relying on the texts that say what Devadatta did and rejecting the texts that explain why he did it.

And be clear that the texts that you are basing your opinions on are Mahayana texts. Which, again, is fine for you to do. However this is a forum for discussing the Early Buddhist Texts and the texts you use to support your opinions are not.

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I am referencing the Flower Sermon only because it points towards an important realisation without consideration for where it has come from.

I am replying to the content in the post born of my understanding.

So… Basically another retelling of a Disney villan’s tale. :laughing:

Thank you, Bhante, it was a really interesting and useful essay.