In the Angulimala Sutta, about the eventual arahant who began his life by killing 999 people, the phrase, “birth is ended” was spoken a few stanzas before his karma was extinguished. After he realized enlightenment he received karmic retribution via an impromptu non-lethal stoning. After he endured this, he soon had an experience of bliss.
Does that mean his ending of rebirth referred to anagamiship? Did he only become an arahant after he paid is karmic dues? Or was his experience of bliss incidental to any attainment? If he was already an arahant, why did the Buddha suggest he endure the stoning? Wouldn’t Angulimala automatically have done the right thing once he was Enlightened?
Maybe you have some misunderstanding of the Dhamma.
At least according to classical Theravada, arahants do not produce new kamma, but can and does still receive the effects of past kamma done.
Rebirth is ended refers to after death, there’s no more rebirth. This is not moment to moment “birth”. Only arahants can rightfully declare rebirth has ended.
One becomes an arahant by eradicating ignorance, not by having all past kamma ripening.
There’s no choice in the matter of kamma ripening. It happens because of causes and conditions. What do you think arahants can do with respect to past kamma ripening?
Not all kamma are instant kamma, the kamma ripening for arahants are from the actions done before they attained arahanthood.
I think I understand now. I misinterpreted the Buddha’s phrase, “endure it!” As a command as opposed to a comment. For instance, I thought it implied that Angulimala had the choice to either endure it or not, and the Buddha suggested he choose endurance. Whereas now that I look at it, it could have been another way for the Buddha to say, “this isn’t a bad thing. It’s a good thing.”
i don’t believe the stoning stopped after his enlightenment. from my recollection, whenever he went on alms rounds, he would come back bloodied.
this may have been from beatings, but also, i recall reading somewhere that as a kamma for his killings, whenever someone threw something, it would invariably hit him.
i think of that as the equivalent of some boys playing cricket while he walks by, and the ball hits him, as well as the bat, inadvertently slipping from a boy’s hands.
“Mendicants, I don’t say that intentional deeds that have been performed and accumulated are eliminated without being experienced. “And that may be in this very life, or in the next life, or in some subsequent period.
And I don’t say that suffering is ended without experiencing intentional deeds that have been performed and accumulated.
They understand:‘Formerly my mind was limited and undeveloped. Now it’s limitless and well developed. Whatever limited deeds I’ve done don’t remain or persist there.’
I asked Ajahn Brahmali that question during last year sutta retreat. This is probably an insertion from Jain. Have a look at the relevant question in this video:
‘No matter how this person performs a deed, they experience the result as it should be experienced.’ This being so, the spiritual life can be lived, and there is a chance of making a complete end of suffering.
What kind of person does the same trivial bad deed, but experiences it in the present life, without even a bit left over, let alone a lot?
A person who has developed their physical endurance, ethics, mind, and wisdom. They’re not small-minded, but are big-hearted, living without limits.
That kind of person does the same trivial bad deed, but experiences it in the present life, without even a bit left over, not to speak of a lot.
In this sutta, it is explained that the same kamma will experience differently due to how wisdom,mind & sila is cultivated. One person may land on hell while another would experience it as a trivial matter.
From MN 101 - This is the sutta where Buddha discuss Jain practice of exhaust past karma using painful ascetic practices. Jains held a view that exhausting all past karma will lead to enlightenment.
Buddha describes how to fruitfully exhaust suffering in the following passage.
“In the same way, a mendicant doesn’t bring suffering upon themselves; and they don’t forsake legitimate pleasure, but they’re not besotted with that pleasure. They understand: ‘When I actively strive I become dispassionate towards this source of suffering. But when I develop equanimity I become dispassionate towards this other source of suffering.’ So they either actively strive or develop equanimity as appropriate. Through active striving they become dispassionate towards that specific source of suffering, and so that suffering is worn away. Through developing equanimity they become dispassionate towards that other source of suffering, and so that suffering is worn away. That’s how exertion and striving is fruitful.
