Why don't we have perfect verbatim records of the buddha-dhamma?

We are clearly not discussing about the same topic, I wonder if it’s too offensive and I should drop it for lack of development. It sounds like most commentators ask “Why don’t you appreciate the dhamma we have? It’s perfect - or if not perfect it’s as good as it gets”. This is not at all my point.

The Buddha as the founder was surely concerned with the question of how to transmit the dhamma to further generations. Is what we have today intended? i.e. the theravada canon with its content, the other existing sects and many extinct fractions - so is the state as it is something the Buddha accepted as a by-product of a transmission system with the benefits of a ‘linux-durability’? or was there a very different system at place when he started teaching up until his death, and after that the sangha(s) deteriorated and changed his transmission system?

I cannot agree with the assumption that we don’t have a perfect verbatim record of the Buddha-dhamma. What is the basis for such affirmation?

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This is a false dichotomy.

The system used was the technology in place at the time, as discussed in various sources (cf. above). This evolved as the content & organization of these texts continued to find a contemporary place over time, and writing is when this process could start to ‘freeze’ in various ways, rendering the foundation of written texts we all use today.

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My take at the problem is quite similar to @daverupa’s with a small addition that the attitude towards the proto-Suttas was quite different. In my humble opinion, the Buddha’s sermons were not regarded both by Himself and His disciples as the magical texts representing the eternal semantic structure of the Universe (Vedas), divinely inspired texts that should not be changed in order not to violate God’s plan (Tanach, Bible), or direct word of God that cannot be changed because it would mean vviolation of God|s sovereignty (Koran). Even though my guess is as good as any other, I think the Buddha and the early Sangha regarded his sermons as just that - sermons. It would not really occur to anyone to learn Ajahn Brahm’s or Jesus’ sermons by heart, it is rather the message that counts. Therefore, no-one really cared to memorize them. Moreover, unlike the Vedic hymns and sacrificial formulae, a sermon is a one-off event, so there is only a single chance to memorize the gyst of what the Buddha said, instead of being able to listen to the same text being reproduced again and again.

When precise formulation was of special doctrinal or practical importance, my guess would be that the Buddha specifically pointed that out to the monks and, well, made them learn it by heart. Which is where some of the doctrinal stock formulae possibly and the Proto-Patimokkha almost certainly come from. Some of the sermons were short and important enough and were constantly talked about and maybe repeated by the Buddha to be memorized almost in their entirety. Hence the proliferation of Dhammacakkappavattana Suttas in the Canons of various schools.

I think that the use of verbatim oral transmission akin to the Brahminical tradition is quite unlikely, given two factors: 1) the nature of the memorized texts I have discussed above; 2) the absence of monks with the Brahmin-level memorization skills in later Buddhist generations. An assumption that the first-generation ex-Brahmins could teach novice monks the memorization skills would mean the degree of professionalization and specialization that was hardly feasible in the early Sangha, especially if it put much emphasis on meditation practices.

Last but not least, even though you are right in saying that discussing sacred texts of other religions is a bit off-topic, I think there are a couple of important points. Take the Tanach, for example. The entire collection and even single books like Genesis are obviously composite works created by multiple authors having different views and mindsets and living at different times. This composite nature suggests that it is highly probable there may have been several competing redactions of the Tanach in the past (cf. Septuaginta with Masoretic text). The same is true for the New Testament, Vedas (since there are several versions of Samhitas associated with different ancient schools) and, arguably, Koran (think about the Satanic verses and different redactions of the Koran destroyed by Khalif’s decree). That is, almost in all cases, except for Islam maybe, there is no ‘verbatim’ text but rather one of the redactions become the quasi-standard. That just never happened in Buddhism.

tl;dr: Nobody learns sermons by heart. No-one wants them to be learned by heart.

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A very interesting question! Thanks for raising it and giving us something to think about.

Is it possible that the Buddha just did not think there was a great deal of information that had to be (or could be) transmitted through the medium of standardized linguistic formulations in order for the dhamma to be preserved and propagated? After all, of the eight parts of the Noble Eightfold Path, only right view arguably involves the storing of propositional knowledge in standardized formulations, and that body of statements can be regarded as relatively limited: some statements about the nature and causes of suffering, and about the path leading to the cessation of suffering. For the most part, when the Buddha explains right view, it consists in having the right mental orientation toward the world and what is of most value in it, not having mastered any body of doctrine.

In the Buddha’s context, no knowledge was spread by books, the internet, or other forms of writing, but was passed on person to person. Perhaps the Buddha’s intention was that the future teachers of the dhamma would be realized arahants, and the students would be instructed by those arahants on the rules of the discipline, the nature of the ultimate goal of the holy life, and the practices leading to the realization of the goal. These teachings about the dhamma would flow directly from the realized state of the arahant, known by the arahant’s own direct knowledge, in whatever way the arahant found to be a skillful means of communicating the content of that state and the path leading to it.

The Buddha often seems to suggest that the lives and minds of Brahmans were so cloyed with mechanically reproduced precepts and practices, and mountains of vedic learning, that they had no space left within to liberate themselves. Maybe he was concerned about not recreating similar systems of overabundant discursive teachings and slavish indoctrination.

Like a master musician, the Buddha was primarily a teacher of practices to apprentice-followers, who he expected would then go on to instruct others in the same practices - generally without the assistance of lengthy written tomes or extended verbal discourses. The Buddha’s practices involve mainly habits of peaceful, purified and restrained personal conduct, disciplined and respectful community living, attentive awareness to one’s actions, and energetic cultivation of deep states of mental concentration. The Buddha did give discursive teachings, but explicitly warned any discursive views gleaned from those teachings were provisional tools for passing over the floods, not something to be held onto.

All this said, there are many places in the suttas where the Buddha seems to employ a method of teaching that consists in having students memorize teachings “in brief”, and then querying them to see whether they themselves can expound the detailed meaning encapsulated in those concise, brief formulations. So maybe there was a focus on the recording of concise bits to be carried around by people who had the discernment to know what they meant.

Also, someone will have to refresh my memory about where it is to be found, but there is a passage somewhere in one of the commentaries where one of the main disciples - Maha Kassapa perhaps? - tells the Buddha that he desires to wander and spread the dhamma. Some time later, one of Kassapa’s students makes a pilgrimage to meet the Blessed One, and on meeting the student the Buddha quizzes him on his knowledge of certain discourses. Could someone please remind me where this story is found?

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I think you’re thinking of Mahakaccayana in Avanti, and his student Sona, eg at Ud 5.6.

Ah, yes. That was it. Thank you, Bhante.

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By the way, here’s an example how we can’t be show to have a verbatim account of a recent philosopher’s text: Nietzsche’s The Will to Power. While the English Wikipedia article, just as the English-language reception of Nietzsche, is not very critical about this book and still says it is a ‘manuscript’ and a ‘book of notes’, the German-language article argues it is ‘regarded as untenable and falsifying [Nietzsche’s ideas]’ (‘sämtliche Kompilationen … gelten als unhaltbar und verfälschend’). It even provides examples how influential interpretations of Nietzsche’s thoughts by philosophers like Heidegger and Deleuze (let’s assume for the sake of an argument, Deleuze was a philosopher, okay?) were caused by mistakes in decoding Nietzsche’s trick Fraktur handwriting (you may see an example below).

Compare it to a widely known simile of the camel going through the eye of a needle. I always thought this i a really weird word choice, it somehow doesn’t compute, it just doesn’t sound right. Turns out I was right: the chances are the initial word ued in the simile was ‘rope’ (shorter discussion in the English Wikipedia, more substantial dicussion in the German Wikipedia). The two words ‘κάμιλος’ (‘rope’) and ‘κάμηλος’ (‘camel’) came to be full homonymns in the Coine Greek if the 1st-2nd centuries AD,hence the confusion.

The only case when the preserved text is almost intact is the Vedas. However, I hardly doubt the Samhitas were understood by the overwhelming majority of the reciters, something that Ven. Analayo mentioned in his articles linked by @Linda. A better understood text may fall victim to misinterpretation, as is the case with Nietzsche’s fragments and Gospel, or may be subject to manipulation, as was the case with The Will to Power and, possibly, with certain Suttas. Why didn’t the Buddha do anything about it? Well, for one, he could have no idea that was possible, since he lived in a society where written texts were marginal or possibly non-existent. Or he wasn’t table to do anything about it,since this is the nature of interpretable memorized texts and he just accepted it.

In India there is this rich tradition of having an original text - more or less understood - and commentaries by individuals who give us their interpretation and their name. For example Shankara’s commentaries to the Upanishads. I don’t care about Shankara or the Upanishads here, but I think the system & principle makes more sense. ‘So what if I don’t understand the original, let me still preserve the text for others who maybe can, and I give my interpretation’.

I just cannot believe that bhikkhus didn’t care about the Buddhas words and went straight to ‘Evam me kinda suttam sort of, maybe, or so, more or less’. I mean a Tathagata arises in the world in this eon - wouldn’t you like to preserve everything? much more the dhamma than worthless ashes?

It doesn’t make sense to argue about it because we just don’t know, but isn’t it more plausible? If it is we might evaluate our texts differently - for example, why is nowhere a reciter mentioned? (except the 1st generation Ananda and Upali, but none of the reciters of the fixed compilation). How does it make sense that the circumstances of the compilation are nowhere mentioned? What are possible selection processes connected with the fixation of the texts? (for example, if it was one long edition and compilation process at a main monastery, and they would have invited reciters and meditation masters it would make sense that forest dwelling meditation masters would shun and avoid the years of monastery life, discussions, arguing etc. which might contribute to explain why the texts are so formulaic and devoid of metaphors and sensible explanations when it comes to adhicitta. I mean could you imagine Ajahn Mun participating hanging out for months in a discussion environment, struggling with scholars who try to prove him wrong with their fiddly arguments?), etc.

But the overwhelming majority of the rural Brahmins possibly never cared of listening to a single one of these commentaries.

That’s exactly the opposite of how the oral transmission of the EBTs worked in the early period. Since the Suttas were compiled in colloquial dialects, people did understand them, which possibly more than once prevented them from memorizing the texts verbatim, especially if the Buddha’s language was even more prakritized than Pali (and there are good reasons to think it was) and thus had more homonymns. The more accurate oral transmission become possible as the Singhalese language diverged from Pali far enough for the Suttas to be not readily understandable to listeners as well as after the spread of Theravada into South-East Asia.

It isn’t. People don’t memorize sermons by heart after hearing them once. Just re-tell the last Dhamma talk by your favourite monk you heard and I think you will have a pretty good idea how the oral transmission worked at the very beginning. The examples of different redaction of the Vedas, apocryphal Gospels, different source texts to the Tanach all proveit is impossible to preserve a ‘pristine’, primordial version of a religious text in a society with low literacy rates. In fact, apart from the Koran, whose Surahs were allegedly to alarge part written down just as Mohammed transmitted them, we have but a very few verbatim citations of Jesus or Moses. I mean, I see why you want there to be a verbatim record of the Buddhavacana, but the historical analysis shows us it’s just very unplausible.

@Gabriel

Hi Gabriel & Others,

Sorry for the late reply Gabriel. I haven’t had much time to look at the site lately. You’ve raised some very interesting question though I don’t have much to add in response. I find Ven Anālayo’s ideas and arguments on this topic to make a lot of sense. Full disclosure: I’ve read nearly all his papers and books and studied with him. I think very highly of/have great respect for his academic work (and in-depth meditation practice) and think his scholarship is impeccable. (BTW, I noticed the pdf links don’t work in one of the references I gave. For anyone interested, here’s a link to many of his papers and books)

As you may know, in many of his papers, not only those more specifically about textual transmission he’s touched on the topic in relation to whatever else he’s exploring. He’s approached it from a lot of angles–e.g. exploring the oral tradition in terms of the difference between the Brahmin reciters and how they were trained vs. the monastic reciters (bhanakas), various mnemonic devices for remembering teachings in an oral culture (repetition, pericopes, waxing syllables, etc), how memory works, text-critical studies comparing the early texts in different transmission lineages, how stories of a commentarial nature can get to be part of the discourses, things suggestive of how the early Buddhsit community developed during and closely after the time of the Buddha, historical development of the various schools, etc.

I think, at least according to the texts we now have, it seems the Buddha was quite concerned with how his teachings were/would be remembered, evidenced for example in how he would strongly rebuke monks who had misunderstood what he said or had misrepresented it, and in his formulation of the four great standards (mahāpadesa). He praise memorization and learning and spreading of the teachings, though of course the main emphasis was on penetrative understanding, not mere rote learning, as being the essential point.

I never seem to be able to get my replies to post under a specific comment (can anyone tell me how?), so this reply may jsut show up at the end though it’s in response to an earlier question you addressed to me. But I also wanted to ask you something about a later comment of yours

which might contribute to explain why the texts are so formulaic and devoid of metaphors and sensible explanations when it comes to adhicitta.

I may be misunderstanding what you’re saying but it seems the texts offer many similes for developing and describing meditative states of mind (adhicitta or similar terms) such as refining gold, using a fine peg to remove a coarse peg, jhana similes, simile of the cloth, etc.

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That rings the truest to me - memorize and understand.

If it hasn’t been done yet maybe we could collect those? I doubt though that we have enough to clarify the matter - otherwise we wouldn’t need the countless books, talks and discussions about buddhist meditation. ‘Are jhanas real?’ ‘I felt great bliss - was that jhana?’ ‘Jhana is possible with normal thinking (vitakka)!’ ‘Are there sense impressions in samadhi or not?’ ‘In the simile of the cow we are told to master the first jhana before going to the second - how do I know if I mastered it?’ ‘Is satipatthana = vipassana?’ ‘Are there vipassana-jhanas?’ ‘Is body contemplation samatha or vipassana?’ ‘If the fourth jhana is not the end of the path, what are we to do emerging out of it?’ etc etc etc. Instead of clear pragmatic descriptions we have 1000 repetitions of the same formulas - ‘we seperate from akusala dhamma and enter and abide in the first jhana’ - as if there is nothing more to say about this topic (I’m exaggerating, but just a little bit). For someone who with discovering the path to liberation by remembering the first jhana our pali canon Buddha is remarkably quiet about what should have been elaborated on in so many ways like he did with sila and the tilakkhana

Similes are very helpful and I’m glad for many of them - even the ones from the commentaries :slight_smile: From the goldsmith similes I find the most practical for my meditation AN 3.102, balancing samā­dhi­, ­_pagga­ha_ (energy) and upekkhā.
So could we collect the similes regarding meditation that we found particularly helpful in our practice?

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@Gabriel,

So could we collect the similes regarding meditation that we found particularly helpful in our practice?

This is a lovely idea. I’m completely swamped at the moment and am not going to have much time to be on the site, so it will probably be awhile before I can get back involved any discussions.

I do love the similes in the suttas and work with them a lot. Which specific one(s) at any given time depend on what’s going on in my practice. Some of my all-time ‘favorites’: the two bundles of reeds for nama-rupa & viaññana, the goldsmith and the many similes of the ocean (in particular the salty taste of ocean/taste of liberation). And so many more :slight_smile:

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Because it might be helpful, for others as well, and is off-topic I start a new one for that

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Although the video is on an unrelated topic, I think Dr. Erhman gives a pretty convincing and scientifically sound answer to your initial question.

And yes, I think the video gives a pretty convincing answer to the question whether we have any verbatim citations from Jesus: most probably yes, but they are few and most likely not 100% verbatim.

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I like Ehrman’s work, but I’m afraid it cannot contribute to our question because Jesus and Buddha are crucially different in one respect that affects the recordings: According to Ehrman Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher, awaiting the end of the world in his generation - with such a conviction there is no need whatsoever to install an enduring system of transmission. Whereas the Buddha on the contrary spoke about an infinity of the future, unless one stops it with correct practice and wisdom - with this basic assumption it becomes essential to install a system of transmission that for as long into the future as possible brings people otherwise stuck in existence to the right practice and salvation.

I think you kind of missed the point about the transmission algorithms in oral cultures. It doesn’t have to do anything with both Jesus and the Buddha: Ehrman’s prime example of oral transmission is about 1920’s Yugoslavia and has very little in common with Ehrman’s understanding of Jesus. Watch it from 1:10:00.

The Buddha was concerned with an enduring system of transmission. The point is that an enduring system of transmission in an oral society is not a verbatim transmission and indeed cannot be verbatim, otherwise it will not be very enduring.

A counter example is the verbatim transition of Vedic texts. However, I suspect the exact reason for its success was that no single person understood what the heck these texts are supposed to mean. Besides, we already discussed the different attitudes towards the Vedas and Suttas among the Ancient Indic people.

What it all boils down to is that your desire to have verbatim records of the Buddhavacana is something deeply alien to the Ancient Indic culture, and indeed all oral cultures up to this day. In an oral culture there is no authoritative source against your transmission of a non-magical (and even some magical) text can be checked, so the notion of a verbatim translation doesn’t really make much sense. What is instead important is to transmit relevant ideas, relevant points condensed in easy-to-understand standardized fomulae. The exact numbers of these doctrinal points you make in each specific case of text recitation or narrative details can vary: it is imaginable that the earliest reciters of the Mahaparinibbana Sutta recited a version twice as long or twice as short as the standard one if they felt like it.

tl;dr: Why don’t we have perfect verbatim records of the Buddhadhamma? Because there are no perfect verbatim accounts of anything non-magical in oral cultures.

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I find myself asking if a verbatim account of the teachings would even be beneficial to my practice, due to the fact that I don’t live in an ancient Indian culture, and would this be a bit confounded by some of the references as well as the context. I believe that the dynamic aspect of even the early buddhist teachings has been a boon to all who practice the path without knowledge of ancient Indian culture. Through the various translations, the cannon has been altered to fit the audience, I believe, and the true Dhamma has a way of shining through. This is evidenced by the level of devotion these words still inspire thousands of years on, in many different cultural settings. It is the teachers who we look to to clarify any doubts or misunderstandings that may arise when we study, a sort of fail safe implemented by the Blessed One himself, which makes the Sangha so important too the practice!

On that note, many, many thanks to all who work so hard to provide this service, Sutta Central and the Discuss & Discover forum! It is truly a refuge, and a place where clarification of the Dhamma can be accessed by anyone.

Sadhu, SADHU, SAAADHUUU!

:anjal:

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I guess we have a ‘glass half-empty/half-full’ kind of discussion. But I’m surprised to see so many fans of the non-verbatim transmission. Let’s take Ajahn Chah as an important teacher. He was a Thai, and unconventional in his style - according to how some of you argue I should have many difficulties to understand his teaching. And that maybe I would get better access to it if I didn’t read the transcript-translations of his talks but the edition of the memory of a list of his main points of a former edition of a memory of a memory of a disciple of his? I at least am glad for the collected-teaching edition of first-hand material, same with Maha Boowa, same with Nisargadatta, Ramana, Mahasi.

My only point was that, as long as the teachings increase the Dhamma, and you have a teacher to help you along the way, verbatim teachings of the Blessed One aren’t necessary. After 2,500 years, I’m thankful to have what we have!

:anjal:

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