Why Is Literal Meaning Insufficient?

The brilliant Aruna Gamage has just uploaded his paper titled Why Is Literal Meaning Insufficient? A Study of Desanāsīsa Explanations in the Pāli Commentaries.

It is about an important commentarial exegetical concept desanāsīsa. This important exegetical heuristic or mode of interpretation “exhorts the reader to transcend the literal meaning” of (some) canonical statements.

Everyone who works on Pāli seriously knows K.R. Norman’s “behest” to translate literally. I am very unhappy with the literal translations, which are still “a must” in the classical Indological philology. This paper shows important contexts in which the literal translation would not be correct, as it was deemed by the Pāli exegetical tradition.

Not that Norman did not know that, too, but it’s a building block that contributes to the growing body of evidence that literal translation might not (always) be the best solution.

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I was under the impression that he did the literal translations to fill a need in academia. That when non-Pali “speakers” need to use the texts in translation, they are better served with a literal translation that is free from interpretation. Was he really saying that in all contexts literal translations were the best thing?

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Hi!

He wrote a few papers where he argued in favor of what he called literal translation. Against a few other ways of translating, including what he called intuitive translating.

Here they are:

As well as Introductions to his translations and many remarks scattered throughout his 8 Volumes of Collected papers and, of course, in his Philological approach to Buddhism.

Was he really saying that in all contexts literal translations were the best thing?

No, and I didn’t say that.

But he insisted that our translations ought to be literal, not intuitive, interpretative, philosophical (like Fyodor Shcherbatskoy taught) or some other ones. That’s why I call it his behest.

I am against Norman’s idea of literal translation.

In German philology, it’s even worse, it’s out of the question: if you want to be an academic and translate “academically”, you must translate everything (very!) literally.

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Thank you for sharing. I will take a look at the paper. :slight_smile:

Personally, I have come to think that the term “literal translation” is a harmful misnomer which distorts the ideas of translators and readers. I think a better term for what people usually refer to is something like a “gloss translation” or maybe even “gloss semi-translation” as often such ‘translations’ do not even render the sentences into the proper grammar of the target language.

For those who don’t know, a “gloss” refers to when you annotate the words of a text, explaining a more literal meaning of the word and the various morphological pieces of the word, such as affixes, which add grammatical meaning. For example:

Cogito ergo sum
cogitate-1.PIND therefore be-1.PIND

This gloss tells us that we have a verb in the first person present indicative, a particle, and another verb in first person present indicative. If we were to render it into a “translation gloss,” we would just do the minimal amount of change possible to make the above gloss into a mostly grammatical English sentence.

When we are dealing with mostly simple sentences that are close, semantically and grammatically, to the structure of the target language, usually the result will look relatively okay. But once the sentences start getting more complex and more distant from the target language, they become less and less natural.

Part of why I think the terminology in common use of “literal translation” is problematic is that it gives the impression that what you read in the translation is what the original text feels or seems like. But that is not the case, because the original text would read like a fluent, native piece of language that a competent speaker would compose.

For example, imagine reading a native English novel. The English there would normally be fluent, coherent, and sound native. If you try to render a “‘literal’” translation of that to, say, Tibetan, the product would not read like a fluent, coherent, native Tibetan text. The effect would rather be a clunky and foreign-sounding text which gives the reader an exotic impression that they are not reading something normal to them. Moreover, much of the meaning and richness of the original English will be lost to the clunky glossing in Tibetan, and the contribution of the nuances of English grammar will also mostly be lost.

The product would be far from “literal” and more like a cultural adaptation to make a foreign sounding text which captures the rough gist of the original. It is very far from literal or “close to the original.” It is highly interpretive and subjective which parts of the text get more ‘nativized’ and naturalized, and which parts left in a state of more clunky gloss by the translator. And if they use square brackets, even more so, because there is the subjective sense of what is more “literal” and what is more “interpretive.” It is really just a sham of language to call such translations literal.

It also assumes that somehow the dictionary definitions of words and the grammatical pieces are more meaningful than the sentences or context of the phrases. This is simply a naive view of language which is not representative of how it works. It is closer to a fantasy of gloss-makers of how they wish language operated than anything close to what actual language is.

Pardon my strict language on this :laughing: At the end of the day, different renderings all have their place. But I do feel people should be made more aware of this problem so that they don’t get fooled.

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One thing to note though - a literal translation can be faithful to the root language, and convey that language’s worldview. So, in the example of English to Tibetan, it feeling clunky and weird in Tibetan would be a feature of a “literal” translation IMO.

I think Chinese is a better example for this. A lot of Chinese - English translations feel weirdly English, when it should probably feel a little weird in English. When I’m looking for a Chinese translation, I’m certainly looking for texts that hardly read like a proper English.

So I would say X to Y translation shouldn’t necessarily feel native in Y. If it feels a little weird, kind of out of place, makes one question the linguistic choices - then I think that’s a proof of a faithful translation. For cheap novels and digestible content, sure, an idiomatic translation is good enough. But for anything artful, philosophical - I know that when I’m reading a translation, I’m not looking to read something that flows smoothly in Turkish or English, but I want to feel and see what kind of idioms, idiosyncrasies and grammatical nuances are there in the original language.

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What you’re describing is more of a gloss, not a translation. If you want to know how the source language operates in terms of its semantics, grammar, idioms, and so on, then you should get a reference grammar or a language reader to gloss the text.

For example, “it’s raining cats and dogs” literally, really truly, actually, not figuratively, means that there is heavy rain pouring. It does not mean that a literal subject (‘it’) is literally leaking literal cats and literal dogs, literally! :laughing: That would be a gloss of the idiom to understand English. In which case, see point 1.

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Sure, but I’d still prefer to read “It’s raining cats and dogs” (and if absolutely necessarily, explain what it means in footnotes and such) rather than it being translated “It was a heavy rain”. :slight_smile:

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Yes, and that’s a fine practice. There’s definitely a place for such things to exist! And I also enjoy things like that when it’s appropriate.

My problem is with saying that that is a ‘literal translation.’ It isn’t literal, it’s figurative, and it isn’t a translation, it’s a gloss rendered as minimally as possible into semi-grammatical form. And it also doesn’t capture the other aspects of language which are literally important, despite believing itself to be a perfect representation out of which the pure original meaning can be derived unstained from the fires of the glosser’s renderings.

But to be clear, there is still a big difference between a free translation and a more literal translation. I’m not saying that translators can go all out and present whatever they think sounds natural however they want and call it ‘literal.’
Translation requires much more skill and familiarity with all the languages involved than semi-grammatical glossing. So it is also harder to produce, and for that reason all the more precious.

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Oh, I see the distinction now. :slight_smile:

Well, that’s a bit of a philosophical dilemma then. :sweat_smile: It’s hard to even agree on what literal means literally! :joy:

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By the way, Tibetan religious texts are often in a specialized Sanskrit-gloss Tibetan which I seem to understand is largely incomprehensible to Tibetan readers without native commentaries and lots of familiarity with that system (and probably the underlying Sanskrit grammar).

So such “literal translations,” which are actually glosses, aspire basically just to quote the original text verbatim as much as possible while getting away with it. If you follow the ideology of them to its ends, as we see hints of in the Tibetan “translations,” you will end up with at best the source text in the target language script with lots of footnotes on the meaning. I.E. you will end up with a grammatical language reader for learning the source language. That is not a translation!

So most of these glossers are constantly compromising their literal glosses for when they need to loathingly indulge in actual moments of translation while they begrudgingly sigh, secretly (or openly) praying and wishing that their audience would just understand the darn original text already! That’s what it feels like anyway. It is a hobby of linguists, not translators.

What they end up with, the commentaries and footnotes and sermons explaining the meaning, often end up being so much more subjective than any free translation might be! They put the students in the role of translator when they are not qualified, and bury the original meaning of the text under the cold earth of later interpretive commentary! It can result in the exact opposite of what a literal translation is supposed to be offering.

Thank you for that! Those are very astute, piercing remarks that deeply resonate with me. I have very similar thoughts and will write more when I have time.

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I get it that the word literal has drifted in meaning in recent years to “actually” - but strictly speaking, literal means “the basic meaning of words,” not their metaphorical or figurative meaning. A literal translation of “It’s raining cats and dogs” would be nonsense in other languages, unless they happen to have the same idiom.

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Yes, this is ideally the case. A translation transfers the meaning of xyz (a passage, a paragraph and not necessairly a single word or a sentence) from a source language to a target language. The translation then should sound natural to a native speaker reading it.
The problem I see when dealing with the Suttas is that we are somewhat in-between the two (major) types of translation that are : literary translation and technical translation.
Translators for literary translation would quite rightly get fired if they translated it’s raining cats and dogs literally from English to another language where heavy rain is expressed differently. This holds true even if in said example the main character is a professional breeder of cats and dogs and everytime he steps outside it’s raining cats and dogs. The pun, though, is obviously lost.

Another example: Keeping alliterations
In a literary translation most translators would opt to not translate literally if an alliteration would be lost otherwise and the content of the alliteration is of no (or little) importance.

Now, the suttas have literary qualities and they feature some very entertaining stories but they should also be considered as ‘user manuals’ - which is the domain of technical translation - and I mean this very, very respectfully. They are considered sacred texts that lead to liberation by many Buddhists. They are the textual basis to walk the path. Now, technical translations and literary translation have a different focus and they employ different techniques. And this is I feel where careful consideration is needed. I will write more on this when I have time.

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Hi @thistle and @cdpatton :slight_smile:

Thank you for the example of puns and alliteration. Those are more perfect examples of how language is not merely a series of morphemes arranged into an arbitrary syntax as the popular view of glossers might have us believe.

There is certainly room for many types of translations and renderings of the texts, and the suttas as you point out have their own unique challenges.

Sure. Like I mentioned to Dogen, it is not that these types of renderings are inherently problematic. I am more criticizing what I feel the popular imagination of the term thinks about them, which translators too can also be convinced of.

For example, alliterations and puns are just as much part of the original as morphemes and syntax. But many people feel that a more “accurate” and “authentic” translation will give them the text in a target language artificially copying the syntax and words, chucking out most of the other features. Not only are the morphemes and syntax not actually portrayed as the source text would have been understood by its original audience, but also this is really just so far from an accurate understanding of language. And it hardly every gets mentioned!

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One thing that gets overlooked in the idea of “literal” translation is that nothing in language is simple, and there are no one-to-one correspondences between languages.

The idea of a “word”, for example, is an abstraction. In what sense is “went” the same word as “go”? Linguists construct an abstract idea of a “verb”, to which they assign specific “words”, and explain the difference forms of the “word” as “tenses”, “voices” and so on. But none of these things exist in language, nor are they of any relevance to the vast majority of native language speakers.

Then we take a specific set of abstractions, which linguists have constructed as a description of a language, and another set of abstractions that describes another language, then match the two abstractions together.

Often enough, the abstractions that describe language share enough similar features that we can match them with useful results. This attests to the power and usefulness of linguistic abstractions. But the effectiveness of abstractions is seductive, and it is easy to fall into the essentialist fallacy, concluding that linguistic abstractions actually exist as normative and causal realities.

The real problem with Norman’s bugbear of “intuitive” translations is that all-too-often “intuition” simply means “what sounds right to the translator”, which is usually what accords with the translator’s priors. Linguistic analysis helps to deconstruct our prejudices.

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Yes, very true. And you’ve just reminded me of etymological translating, which is an even more monstrous form of “literalism” that is a clear example of the glosser’s misunderstanding of language. :pray: I will update my essay in time.

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Yes, in this sense we’re a bit lucky in English. There are a lot more false cognates in the South / Southeast Asian languages that were influenced by Pāli
/ Sanskrit. The temptation to think you know a Pāḷi word because it sounds / means something like a word in your language can be overwhelming.

But anyway, it’s probably all a bit overblown imho. Apart from cases of genuine fraud, most translators are doing their best. Yes, styles differ. But as @Snowbird pointed out obliquely above: different translations serve different purposes. And that’s okay

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Yes, as I’ve pointed out, that is not the problem. Grammatical gloss renderings are great things which are useful and important. And there are many, many ways to properly translate a text for all kinds of different ends.

The problem is not that they exist. It is that people misunderstand them to be something they fundamentally are not. This gives a highly distorted understanding of the renderings themselves in the minds of translator and reader, and also a highly distorted sense about other renderings which are translations proper, with all their variety in approach.

Cashews are great. There’s nothing wrong with cashews existing and people eating cashews. But if you think cashews have all the nutrition you need, then both cashews and other foods are slandered, the purpose and limits of both confused.

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Thank you, Sphairos, for sharing this interesting paper. I quickly scanned it and understand the point being made, so that’s a promising start :smile:. I plan to read it more slowly because it introduces some terminology and context I’d like to acquire.

I quickly scanned Norman’s paper On Translating Literally where his main beef seems to be with Gil Fronsdal’s translation of the Dhammapada. Fair enough; it helps me understand Norman.

It also seems important to distinguish between readers and types of content. If I’m recommending an English translation of Proust to someone who can’t read French, I tell them that there are subtleties of French that do not translate well, if at all, to English. I assume, if I were French and an avid Dickens reader, that someone tells me the same thing about the French translation of Dickens.

And this is not consequential, really, unless the reader is looking for a Proustian cult and really needs to understand what he’s saying because their life depends on it. Or if they feel reading Proust in English qualifies them for putting “Proust subject matter expert” on their CV.

This makes sense to me. Ironically, the reason I started learning pāli was because I felt I was being fooled. Not intentionally, but accidentally by people who taught dhamma by repeating what they had learned from another teacher, who had learned from another teacher, and so forth.

I just assumed everything I heard was Buddhist dhamma. I even thought Rumi and Hafiz wrote Buddhist dhamma, or something like it. It all blended together so well, based on the numerous side quotations and cross-referencing by various teachers during dhamma talks. It all felt quite fluid, this intermingling of poetic one-liners and what have you.

This was consequential. I needed more than Ladinsky’s style of translating Hafiz:

I might also mention here that once in a while I may seem to have taken the liberty to play a few of these lines through a late-night jazz sax instead of from a morning temple drum or lyre. To some readers a few expressions in thie book may appear too contemporary for this work. To that I say – nothing doing. The word translation comes from the Latin for “to bring across.” My goal is to bring across, right into your lap, the wondrous spirit of Hafiz that lifts the corners of the mouth. I view this goal as a primary, no-holds-barred task. And I apologize for any language that may stop the beguine and not let the reader remain in Hafiz’s tender strong embrace.

Now, reading Ladinsky’s The Gift does bring delight to my soul. But I also know that I’m reading Ladinksy reading Hafiz. In fact, I’m interested in learning about Ladinsky personally because I feel him behind this translation – a gifted, 20th century translator and likely healer. So if I get all jazzed about “When You Can Endure” (a poem in the book), I remind myself how Ladinsky is wonderfully poetic and sensitive.

I started learning pāli through glossing but that’s almost certainly because I have an affinity for linguistics. I knew, for example, after delving into Bhikkhu Bodhi’s Reading the Discourses that that level of analysis wouldn’t transfer to a lay practice group. But I finally started holistically understanding the dhamma and could distill that for the average person in a way not possible previously.

I feel, Vaddha, that these distinctions you draft in this thread and in the new one you started as an off-shoot are quite helpful. I appreciate that one needs to be careful about tossing around “translation” versus a gloss or even a semi-gloss. :pray:

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Hi Beth!

Great to hear that it was interesting and didn’t cause you significant difficulties. It’s understandable that you want to reread it later, because it’s for narrow specialists. I also will need to reread and rereread it :slight_smile: .

In that paper, Norman quickly reiterates the crucial points from the other paper, On translating from Pāli, at the beginning. I would recommend reading this first part to understand his problem with all other than literal types of translation. Then the beef with Fronsdal’s translation starts.

I personally like Fronsdal’s translations, especially his translation of the Aṭṭhakavagga. It’a actually one of the best or the best. And I don’t like Norman’s translations. As he says in this paper, his translations are just useful materials for future generations of scholars. And in this role, they are great, and I am very grateful that he produced them. But otherwise…

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