Any discussion of Tathāgata I have ever seen tries to decompose it into either the compound tathā+gata or tathā+āgata (and it seems Chinese translators settled on the latter with 如來). But the suffix gata is a common idiom for making a noun into an adjective. One of the first lessons in New Course in Reading Pali even includes avijjāgata for the adjective “ignorant” or the noun “ignorant one.” Why would Tathāgata not be something like “the one who is thus” or “the one who is like this” (echoes of Ajahn Sumedho)? What am I missing here? I’ve never seen anyone else even suggest that, and it seems really obvious and fitting to me, so there’s probably a huge blind spot for me here.
Yes, that’s what it most likely means.
See also here :
This may add to this discussion:
Yes, as mentioned, this is a likely meaning. The ‘-gata’ suffix can have the sense of ‘having’ or ‘is’, like your example of avijjāgata shows- less “gone to ignorance” and more “is ignorant.”
Perhaps one reason it’s not translated this way is that the rendering has little sense in English without an explanation. But, ‘thus gone’ means very little also, and could be an incorrect sense of the term, missing the mark entirely.
The term “who” is always a problem, per SN 12.12.
This thread is about how one might render Tathagata in a meaningful way, not a metaphysical exploration of the nature of self.
Another option is that tathā comes from tatha, meaning ‘truth’, not from tathā meaning ‘thus’. So then tatha + agata means, among other possibilities, ‘who has arrived at the truth’. (For a few references see here.)
" ‘Diṭṭhevāhaṃ, bhikkhave, dhamme tathāgataṃ ananuvijjo’ti vadāmi , ‘even while alive there is no truthfinder to be found, I tell you’."
Thanks for the interesting translation.
I wonder if it would be even more dramatic if diṭṭhe…dhamme was rendered literally as something like, ‘in this visible state’; and ‘truthfinder’ a bit more idiomatic- like ''realized one" ?
‘I say that even in this visible state, there is no Realized One found.’…
Hi Stephen,
As mentioned in the linked thread, Sphairos’s suggests that the Pali Commentary’s gloss of Tathāgata as ‘satta’ seems likely to actually be ‘satthar’, i.e. ‘teacher, master.’
I think you mixed me up with someone else.
Hi Stephen. Are you saying the translation must include the word “who”?
My apologies for the misattribution.
You will probably like Richard Gombrich’s view on tathāgata and tādin in section 10 pages 16-17 of https://ocbs.org/wp-content/uploads/2017/02/1997-Religous-Experience-in-Early-Buddhism-Eighth-Annual-BASR-Lecture-pp.-1-18.pdf
This is the theory I mentioned above and always believed to be correct, but the idea presented by Ven. Sunyo above [tatha + agata] seems simpler and rather convincing: “truthfinder” / i.e. ‘one who has arrived at the truth.’
I don’t know if “agata” is used in this way with other terms, like “gata” is, though.
Ah, yes, that is close to what I was thinking about it, too. Thank you!
I like this very plausible interpretation by Thomas/ Ven Sunyo, but I find Gombrich more convincing because of the existence of tādin in virtually the same sense as tathā + gata, ‘one who is thus’.
It’s a pity Gombrich doesn’t discuss the Thomas interpretation in the link I provided or in his book, What the Buddha Thought p151, where he repeats the same argument.
thus gone, refers to finding and following a path, like finding and following the breath.
finding and following Nature.
the aspect of continual change is part of the oneness of path following, and each of us finds and follows our own path.
Tathāgata is more about the middle way than about the person that follows it, and perhaps it is more about the manner of navigating the way than about the way itself.