Why it is wise to believe in Rebirth

No, I don’t think that has been my general experience, but I do think it’s involved if anyone thinks, “I have to believe in rebirth, because if it is true, I have to believe in it to be born in a good place.”

Well, I suppose someone could offer persuasive, non-laboratory, non-publicly verifiable testimonial evidence that they themselves have had such experiences, and those experiences are what their belief is based on. I don’t deny the possibility of direct experiential awareness of mental phenomena that are inherently private to the person who has them, and therefore cannot be publicly verified otherwise than in an indirect way.

But, if instead, someone has not had such experiences and offers only their belief that the Buddha had such experiences, and can only offer vague conjectures of what that experience of the Buddha might have consisted in I would say that their belief is probably faith-based. And that’s fine. That’s what I argued in the first place. And several people in this conversation have just said, “I have faith in the Buddha.” I only object to imagining that that rationally unsupported faith in the Buddha amounts to a rational possession of a higher science, which then gives one grounds for criticizing the supposedly inferior insights and abilities of others.

What I would say to the friend is "There is still a lot of time left today. And although having drug experiences and going wild might seem like “fun”, they are actually a form of suffering, and so it would be better for us to cultivate peaceful contentment - now, for the rest of the day, and then in whatever time might come later.

It would hard to compare the two without further context. In some cases belief in rebirth could be just as wild and quixotic as belief in Elvis’s ghost. It depends on what the beliefs are based on.

belief in rebirth can’t be coerced. Buddha did not teach by coercion.

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Apparently Analayo is coming out with a book on rebirth next year, I’m definitely looking forward to that.

Forcibly believing in something has nothing to do with Buddhism but perhaps more common in theistic religions. Belief per se has no connection with finding a favorable rebirth - being a wholesome and happy person does. I understand that belief is strongly connected to ending up in heaven in other religions. Personal practice and transformation is what is linked to ending up in higher realms in the dhamma. Rebirth and kamma can lead to such attitudes and behaviour, but it isn’t absolutely required, I don’t think. Compassion can equally lead to wholesome behaviour.

“Householders, there are some recluses and brahmins whose doctrine and view is this: ‘There are definitely no immaterial realms.’
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“Now there are some recluses and brahmins whose doctrine is directly opposed to that of those recluses and brahmins, and they say thus: ‘There definitely are immaterial realms.’ What do you think, householders? Don’t these recluses and brahmins hold doctrines directly opposed to each other?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”
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“About this a wise man considers thus: ‘These good recluses and brahmins hold the doctrine and view “there are definitely no immaterial realms,” but that has not been seen by me. And these other good recluses and brahmins hold the doctrine and view “there definitely are immaterial realms,” but that has not been known by me. If, without knowing and seeing, I were to take one side and declare: “Only this is true, anything else is wrong,” that would not be fitting for me."MN20

“Very well, then, headman, I will question you on this matter. Answer as you see fit. What do you think: There is the case where a man is one who takes life, steals, indulges in illicit sex; is a liar, one who speaks divisive speech, harsh speech, & idle chatter; is greedy, bears thoughts of ill-will, & holds to wrong views. Then a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart [saying,] ‘May this man, at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world!’ What do you think: would that man — because of the prayers, praise, & circumambulation of that great crowd of people — at the break-up of the body, after death, reappear in a good destination, the heavenly world?”
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“No, lord.”
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“Suppose a man were to throw a large boulder into a deep lake of water, and a great crowd of people, gathering & congregating, would pray, praise, & circumambulate with their hands palm-to-palm over the heart [saying,] ‘Rise up, O boulder! Come floating up, O boulder! Come float to the shore, O boulder!’ What do you think: would that boulder — because of the prayers, praise, & circumambulation of that great crowd of people — rise up, come floating up, or come float to the shore?”
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“No, lord.” SN42.6

with metta

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Those who are cleansed do not form a view
About states of becoming or nonbecoming anywhere in the world.
Having abandoned illusions and conceit,
By what means would those who are cleansed go [to nonattachment]?
They are without attachment.

One who is attached argues over doctrines–
How and with what does one argue with someone unattached?
Embracing nothing, rejecting nothing,
Right here, a person has shaken off every view.

Verses seven and eight from the Dutthatthaka Sutta, the third chapter of the Atthakavagga (“Book of Eights”). Translated by Gil Fronsdal.

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:slight_smile:

I suggest to be careful with ‘no-view-Buddhism’. No-views was the position of the ascetic Sañjaya Belatthaputta, of whom it is said

“If you ask me: ‘Is there another world?’ if I thought so, I would say so. But I don’t think so. I don’t say it is so, and I don’t say otherwise. I don’t say it is not, and I don’t not say it is not. If you ask: ‘Isn’t there another world?’…‘Both?’…‘Neither?’…‘Is there fruit and result of good and bad deeds?’ ‘Isn’t there?’… ‘Both?’…‘Neither? ’…‘Does the Tathagata exist after death?’ ‘Does he not?’…‘Both?’…‘Neither?’… I don’t not say it is not.” (DN 1, DN 2, DN 34, MN 41, MN 60, MN 76, MN 110, MN 114, MN 117, SN 42.13, AN 3.66, AN 3.118, AN 8.29, 10.211)

I know one could get the impression from parts of the Snp that no-views is a legitimate perspective of Buddhism, but it dwarfs in comparison to the EBT as a whole where the distinction between right and wrong views dominates.

And of course the Buddha was pushing people to believe in ethics-driven rebirth. What else is it when he says “If you do this you go to hell, if you do that you go to heaven”? No need to doubt his motivation, it’s simply the function of a Tathagata to move beings towards the end of suffering. But it doesn’t change the fact that from the perspective of the unenlightened listener it was like “holy crap, he seems to know what he’s talking about, I don’t want to go to hell, let me better do what he says” - and where is here the difference to other religions with the threat of hell? we might say: the unquestionably pure being of the Buddha. But would that convince followers of other heaven-and-hell-religions?

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