Why Secular Buddhism is Not True

The problem with secular Buddhism, and the many popular fusions of modern Buddhism with western psychotherapy, is that they tend to take the samsaric value system for granted, and use Buddhist teachings only as a source of therapeutic techniques providing a more prudent, less stressful way to pursue the worldly goals of this value system.

But clearly the Buddha utterly rejected the samsaric value system, and taught a path of profound renunciation aimed at a much deeper and more comprehensive transformation of one’s experience, values, motivations and goals. This part of the teaching has nothing in itself to do with either the reality or unreality of rebirth or the lack of rebirth. It was based on the Buddha’s wise observation that the typical, and entirely natural, human pursuit of fame, wealth, public esteem, monumental personal achievements, sexual gratification, political and military conquests, and teeming families is nothing but a frustrating rat race and an ultimately unsatisfying, frequently miserable path through life. He taught that one could make a complete end of suffering, and achieve a suffering-free state of total and profound peace in this very life. But achieving the goal of this path requires rejecting the path that is pointed to by our natural drives, and by most of our worldly social norms and imperatives. It’s not something that can be achieved by meditating a bit every day as you plot your conquests in the realm of worldly affairs.

This teaching, if true, is deep and utterly transformative for those who heed it and follow it, and is not a mere worldly psychological management technique. But also, if true, it would be equally applicable to beings that have only one life and beings who have many lives.

The belief in rebirth is almost entirely a faith-based belief. This should be clear to most people here. The issue of rebirth comes up again and again in discussions among different kinds of Buddhists, and between Buddhists and others, and the result is always the same. Although it is clear many people are strongly committed to the belief in rebirth, when asked to clarify the content of their belief and to offer evidence in support of that belief, they generally flounder badly. No one has ever brought forward a rationally compelling argument for belief in rebirth. If they had, one can be sure it would be widely circulated in Buddhist forums. But having read widely in scholarly Buddhist studies and more popular Buddhist discussions, it seems clear to me that there is little to be found. Even in this discussion forum, people who insist on the reality of rebirth have been asked from time to time to explain what they think is involved in rebirth, and defend the claim that rebirth actually occurs, but the results have not been impressive. There are some anecdotes and stories that float around in Buddhist circles, but they are not very compelling, objectively considered. Mostly, the defender of rebirth simply falls silent, and offers nothing. The intellectual or evidential case for rebirth is shabby, to say the least.

People who believe in rebirth and believe the materialists or other kinds of rebirth-skeptics are just stubborn, and are not giving the doctrine of rebirth a fair hearing, should advance the evidence they think the materialists should be paying more attention to. But again, having encountered many such discussions over many years, it does not appear to me that the defenders of rebirth have very much to offer. Given that, criticisms of the alleged “close-mindedness” of those who decline to believe in rebirth fall rather flat. The believers in rebirth might ask themselves which minds are actually the most closed. I think we are really in “put up or shut up” territory here, and the burden should not be seen as falling on those who decline to believe an extraordinary claim for which no compelling evidence has been offered, but rather on those who are advancing the extraordinary claim.

Now it is certainly true that the preponderance of textual evidence points strongly to the fact that the Buddha himself believed in rebirth. There are some texts in which the Buddha not only appears to express these beliefs, but also appears to represent those beliefs as very important and crucial to his outlook. There are other texts, however, in which the Buddha appears to be addressing substantially the same existential matters, but rebirth barely makes an appearance, and all of the emphasis is on “this very life” and the unwholesomeness of worrying about what does or does not come next, or what did and not come before. It is hard to know what to make of this, and it is reasonable to wonder whether the texts might represent a composite of both the Buddha’s teachings and those of either earlier teachers or subsequent followers.

Philology and history and textual scholarship can tell us, with varying degrees of probability, what the text says, and maybe even what the Buddha thought and taught. But these studies in themselves cannot tell you which of these statements are true and which of them are false. To say, “the Buddha knew the reality of rebirth from his personal experience” might seem like a quasi-scientific appeal to observation and experience, but is really just an additional faith-based belief. Ultimately, it rests on a decision to take certain textual pronouncement represented as coming from the mouth of the Buddha at literal face value, and as true. The Buddha said he “saw” people’s past and future lives, and saw them wandering on from womb to womb, and some people are disposed to accept those apparent claims on faith.

Is this the only way of following the Buddha? Not at all. One might think of it like this: Suppose one wonders what is at the top of some tall and remote Himalayan mountain that, so far as you are aware, has never been climbed. But you then discover the Greatest Sherpa in the World. This Sherpa tells you he has climbed the mountain, and knows the path to the top, and can lead you there. He tells you many things about what can be seen and experienced along the way. These accounts accord with the accounts of others who have tried to reach the top, but they contain other descriptions of even further reaches, descriptions conveyed with some detail and compelling verisimilitude. And he tells you what can be experienced at the top: “It’s very, very peaceful. The wind is surprisingly still. It’s cold and dry. It’s hard to breathe. And you can see Tibet from there! And India! And even Bhutan! I can lead you to the top.”

OK, sounds credible. But suppose he goes on to say, “And not only that, but you can touch the celestial vault! And you can put stars in your pocket! And you can talk to Indra and Shiva, and even Great Brahma! And you can see into all of the celestial mansions, and into the past and the future.”

Um, OK, I think a reasonable person at this stage might say, “I think this Sherpa has reached the top of the mountain, and knows a lot about what is up there, and that he is thus worth following. But all the same, I doubt you can see all of the realms of the cosmos from there, or that these purported beings and entities even exist. This Sherpa was perhaps intoxicated with the exhilaration of the summit, or has combined his own folk beliefs and private fantasies with what he veridically experienced. Still he’s worth following, because I think he knows the way.

If rebirth isn’t real, why is it so commonly believed? It is easy to account for the widespread belief in rebirth in Buddhist societies, just as it is easy to account for the widespread belief in heaven and hell in Christian societies. For one thing, human beings have both a strong craving to cling to life and perpetuate their existence, and a cognizance of the apparent limits of that existence. This horrifies them. So, they have invented a wide variety of thought systems providing some solace, some way out, from looks from a cold point of view like a fatal, final mortality. These systems don’t try to eliminate the root horror of mortality, but rather indulge us in the fantasy that mortality is an illusion.

Also, beliefs surrounding rebirth, heavens and hells, and some aspects of kamma, are a useful mechanism for moral and social control when wielded by social authorities. That is why in societies where these doctrines are regarded as orthodoxy, Buddhism receives strong state support and is even a state religion. It is extremely convenient doctrine for those tasked with controlling people’s behavior.

The monastics teaching these doctrines also have obvious and strong institutional motivations for perpetuating them. The main motivation is that they live a lifestyle that depends on the material support of the laity, and a good proportion of that laity appears to believe that the main benefit in giving stuff to monks is its kammic benefits not just in this life, but in other lives. So even monks who are sincere might be victims of motivated reasoning.

Also, even the truly spiritual can develop powerful motivations for wishful thinking about rebirth. If one has dedicated oneself to pursuit of the goal, and is reaching the end of one’s life not having achieved it, one is going to have a powerful emotional incentive to believe one has more lives to come and will have another crack at it. Accepting that one’s life is truly coming to an end an be a tough pill to swallow, and might feel like spiritual failure.

If one believes that the Buddha’s path really does point to the profound transformation and a complete end of suffering, but that one only has one life in which to achieve this goal, what follows? I think several important consequences.

First one might want to dedicate even more time toward the pursuit of the goal, since the window of opportunity for attaining it is small.

Second, one can reflect on the fact that the Buddha’s path is not a path through a gauntlet of torture, that only turns out to be justified in the end if you achieve nibbana, but is instead a path through higher and higher states of happiness, so it is worth pursuing even if you never reach the goal. The path toward the most perfectly pure state passes through states of increasing purity; the path toward the most perfectly liberated state passes through states of increasing liberation; the path toward the most perfectly blissful state passes through states of increasing bliss.

Third, one can reflect on the fact that, although as an individual you are not going to be “wandering on” after death, many fellow human beings and other sentient beings will be wandering on and coming into existence, and they need help. Even if you never get far on the path, you can help others do so, and helping others will make you happier. The more you get your own deluded and grandiose and melodramatically miserable ego out of the way, the more motivated you will be to use your short personal lifespan to do good for others, which includes both the beings who exist now and those will exist in the future. The Buddhist twist on all of this is the recognition that helping others does not consist in helping them achieve fame or money or sensual gratification, but helping them achieve peace and liberation.

So that’s an attitude you can take while still following the Buddha. You’re going to die. It’s final. Because that’s final, one would do well to prepare for that end by using one’s time wisely to loosen the tenacious clinging to life, the thirst for continued existence, and the horror of mortality that casts a pall of misery over our lives. Curiously, loosing this clinging does not make you more eager for your life to end, but makes you more peacefully joyful that you have a life at all in which you can bring some peace, joy and bliss to yourself and others.

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Thank you Ajahn. This is very useful. I recommend those interested to read the Brahmajāla Sutta: The All-embracing Net of Views. An English translation can be found on Access to Insight and probably on Sutta Central. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/dn/dn.01.0.bodh.html

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I don’t know if I agree with you, but that was very well said, and I do see where you’re coming from. I would be interested to know though, what you think reaching arahantship actually means in your view. Also, if you’re rich and powerful, wouldn’t you just be better off going crazy with sense pleasure until you die? Obviously awakening is better, but since there is a good chance you won’t reach it, without rebirth it’s kind of a big risk to take, especially since if you aren’t practicing the right tradition, you could be totally wasting your entire life for nothing, when instead you could just be a hedonist. These are the major issues I have with no actual rebirth.

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I think nibbana is both the complete end of suffering, and a positive state of pure and unalloyed bliss. It is a state of being in which no tincture of anxiety, sadness, burdensomeness or displeasure exists. It is without any taint or defiling experience or yearning emotion, not even the yearning for the nibbanic state itself to continue. It is perfect freedom and purity. It is pleasurable, but of a pleasure that the Buddha said is non-sensual and so unlike the pleasures of our worldly experience.

Sense pleasure, and the pursuit of sense pleasure, actually contains a great deal of anxious suffering. The anxiety to perpetuate the craving is there, and in many cases the experience of pleasure itself is mixed and deluded. So I do not think the rich sensualist is actually happy. He would do better to put down all of those cravings and work toward peace. Even if he never gets all the way there, being part of the way there is better than the mad hedonistic scramble he is embroiled in.

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Bhante, I ordered the Wright book via Amazon (drone delivery?) and should have it read within a week or so’s time. If you’d like, I can send you the book, once I’m done, to Bhavana Society,and you can keep it at the library there.

Definitely, but the problem is knowing how to even get part of the way there. If you’re not practicing in the exact right way that the Buddha taught, then chances are you’re not going to get anywhere, and then even the merit you’ve gained from meditation and making an honest attempt doesn’t matter. So now you’ve devoted your life to this practice, not gotten a whole lot out of it, because you misunderstood the text or whatever, and then you just die and that’s it. That’s pretty rough. For example, with the dry-insight practices of today, it’s not uncommon for people to go their whole life practicing and not really get anywhere as far as actually uprooting desire. Most of them think that at least practicing all their life like they have will benefit them in the lives to come, eventually getting them to arahantship. I mean, if you reach stream-entry, at least you’re not scared of dying anymore, but still. And then there are the claims of 7 more lives at most until awakening. Those are difficult to explain without rebirth as well. I’m not disagreeing with you per say, just that these are things to think about to go down this road.

Dan, one reason I enjoy your posts…you argue beautifully and persuasively. I feel that your position does capture the position of many thoughtful and developed persons that consider rebirth from the Buddhist perspective.

From my point of view, there has to be room in this life of thought and exploration for nuance, for the possibility that we cannot fully investigate or prove many aspects of life. While you argue appropriately that belief in rebirth requires faith, I would contend that this belief, at least for me, is based on saddha, that quality of trust or confidence that the best available evidence points to this position as being likely ( to a reasonable degree of belief or certainty) or reliable.

Ajahns @Sujato and @Brahmali taught a Kamma and Rebirth course, available on youtube, that, at least to me, makes the case that the confidence that the Buddha had in his experience of rebirth is confidence that we can share through our own intellect and investigation. Perhaps the safe position to take is one of agnosticism, but to me that view is a hedged bet,and I don’t feel that that Buddha was in the business of offering wagers or possibilities.

So, at least for this life, my saddha in this teaching of rebirth is the most sound and appropriate position to take, for me. When I am reborn as a mosquito (for having killed so many) my views may change. Hot blood being vomited?..yum!

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Well, yes, I guess its always true that if you are going to do something important, then it is worth trying to do it right, so you don’t waste your time.

But I think this is making too much of a problem out of everything. I don’t think it is all that hard to learn how to practice in at least a roughly right way, and if one does that, and sticks with it, one’s life will improve. Getting too worked up about precise techniques seems counterproductive. If you keep trying to attend to your suffering, and see more deeply into what’s causing it, you begin to let go of it, and the cravings that are producing it. The more you let go, the more concentrated you get. The more concentrated you get, the more subtle the kinds of suffering you are able to notice. And then you make progress in letting go of those sufferings, the deeper the concentration etc. It’s a self-developing process so long as the effort is there.

Even the dry insight folks make progress if they are serious. It’s impossible to look really closely at the conditioned rising and falling of desire without starting to let go of them. It just happens naturally.

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The belief in no rebirth is also, almost entirely, a faith-based belief.

Can you prove to me conclusively that there is no rebirth? Apart from your strongly convicted views? Do you know whence consciousness arises, or what it is, or how it is sustained? Do you know the nature of thoughts, or what their substance, or how they are perceived?

You believe this is the truth, but can you conclusively prove this to anybody who does not hold sympathetic views? Here you are no different to the believer in rebirth whom you vilify.

My recommendation is indeed to proceed with caution. A being who clings stubbornly to any particular view as right, when truthfully they do not know the ultimate truth, may condemn themselves to ignorance for a long time to come.

Please note: I am neither propounding, nor endorsing, any particular view. Only pointing out that you are fiercely clinging to certain views yourself.

The Noble Eightfold Path begins with Right View. If you cling stubbornly to wrong view, you may very well be heading in the wrong direction. This way, the Buddha’s nibbana may quite possibly (most probably) not be found.

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In my mind, it is not so much that there is tons of evidence for rebirth (although there IS a body of evidence/researched claims for anyone interested in looking into these things. Also worth noting - there is really no evidence for non-rebirth ie nothingness at death), in the sense of some kind of physical proof that could be empirically verified, that makes it compelling. Rather, it is the fact that the Buddha did teach about the reality of rebirth - so naturally, one who has sufficient faith in the Buddha will be inclined to accept this. No one NEEDS to become a Buddhist, or even if they do, to believe in every aspect of the teaching - there is no compulsion there - but claiming that the Buddha didn’t teach it at all just seems silly.

Personally, the prospect of non-existence doesn’t scare me that much. Rational thought should quite easily lead you to conclude that there is absolutely nothing to fear about nothingness, by definition. So, I really don’t find that a compelling argument to explain why people believe in rebirth, on the whole.

Now, the pain of death and the loss of relationships and possessions is somewhat troubling, but the prospect of a future life isn’t much consolation, especially if you might be reborn in a lower realm.

We should not forget that the Buddha taught about rebirth, but also about how to END rebirth - in Buddhism, rebirth is not some kind of fantastical, pleasant way to extend your sense of self beyond physical death, it is the process of the continuation of suffering which is to be overcome.

I’m inclined to agree with Prof. Robert Thurman that it is actually the belief in guaranteed nothingness that is more comforting - of course it wouldn’t be pleasurable, but then again it wouldn’t be painful, or anything at all for that matter: some people believe Nibbana is something analogous to this state of nothingness, but they are sufficiently terrified by the prospect of rebirth that they devote their entire life to attaining release from it.

Those who believe they will automatically achieve such a state just by dying could be clinging to that belief because deep down they fear “what dreams may come.”

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Thanks Michael. I guess my bottom line these days is that spending a lot of time arguing about this kind of thing is just a way of avoiding practice, and generates needless intellectual thickets and hindrances. But I do think that when someone says things that are going to produce doubts and hindrances in the practice of others, and criticizes others for not getting it, then they should be able to back up their assertions with compelling arguments. If they cannot, then their advice might be quack advice, and that should be discouraged.

Of course, one has to be open to whatever it is experience teaches one. And we can’t precisely know ahead of time where those experiences will lead. But it also seems to me that if I am in any state of mind where my well-being and spiritual progress psychologically depend on elaborate beliefs about what is, or is not, going to happen to my mind years from now, or on what happened to it years in the past before I was born, then I am attached to conceptualizations that I don’t need, and are a hindrance.

For me, saddha is just what keeps me going. Whether I am meditating, or acting mindfully and with restraint, I often feel, “This is it. This is the path. I can feel this is leading somewhere better.” To me that’s enough, and it redoubles my confidence. It’s not a bet or gamble. It’s direct experience of things getting better.

Suppose someone comes to a Buddhist community to follow the path toward ending their suffering, and suppose they end up thinking, “I used to be suffering just because I couldn’t stop drinking and my boyfriend was psychologically abusing me. But now I’m also suffering because I’ve heard there are hells which I never believed in before! Not only that, it turns out that I am a bad and stupid Buddhist, because I can’t see or bring myself to believe in these hells and demons and realms that my teacher says are out there!”

I think that is a bad outcome! :slight_smile:

It’s also a bad outcome if people are having thoughts like “I used to think I was a 9-time returner, but now I think I’m mainly just a 16-time returner! Damn it! And wait, was that the stream? Did I just enter it? Or was it just vertigo because I’m tired and hungry? I’m so confused!”

I don’t think we should be very tolerant of people using false authority, grounded in nothing but the robes of pious hierarchy, to foist these kinds attitudes on people. It might look like compassion, but it is really more likely a strategy for maintaining authority and psychological control, and a sense of privileged access to profound secrets. It promotes suffering.

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Sadhu, Dan. Well said.

I really like the way you put this and agree wholeheartedly.

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I’ve heard Thurman present that theory, but I don’t think it characterizes the outlook of most materialists - or regular human beings for that matter. I tend to think human beings are instinctively terrified of death. They are driven by an intense desire to perpetuate their own existence, a desire that is in some way at the root of every other desire. They crave the perpetuation of the world of their experience, because that is the only world that exists for them, and the fact that that world is coming to an end, along with all of their relationships, is horrible. They are not terrified by some mysterious post-death state of “nothingness” at the moment of death, because they cannot imagine that. Rather its the sheer end of life that they are afraid of.

If you have ever read a book about how people die on the battlefield, it would hard to believe many people are comforted by non-existence. They scream “Don’t let me die!” They call out for their mothers. They say “Buddy I’m scared!” It’s not hell that’s scaring them. It’s the mere thought, “This is it. This is the end of everything!”

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No, of course not. Nobody can prove a single thing about what happens to the stream of conscious experience with the death of the organism. Some things seem more probable that others, but conclusively established views one way or the other seem out of the question.

I didn’t vilify anyone. I claimed that the belief in rebirth is faith-based, and therefore the people who believe it have no basis for criticizing the people who don’t. I also argued that people should refrain from harming others by propagating beliefs about post-death existence for which they have no real basis.

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That’s one, extreme death circumstance; there are many other death circumstances to consider as well. I visit with an elderly man who is, to paraphrase his report, waiting for death to hurry up already. When my nan died she was very welcoming of it. This isn’t to negate your valid point, but just to encourage softly allowing for alternative views and responses to the whichever one we might be ‘native to’.

This is, in fact, something I’d encourage within the whole discussion. Going right back to the opening lines of the thread, I was struck by the comments “It’s fairly standard in early Buddhism circles to dismiss the central claims of secular Buddhism” and “The problem is not that the secularists present only a small part of Buddhism; it’s that they, implicitly or explicitly, regard their own small viewpoint as better” and how no connection between these details was made.

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It is painful to consider these disagreements. To extend a hand of friendship, I would say that as a secularist myself with a modest online presence I agree with Bhante @sujato’s claims as to what the Buddha actually taught. (At least so far as we can know this from the textual evidence). Further than that, I do not think that online arguments go much beyond strengthening our tendency to cling to views and opinions.

I have my own views and opinions on these matters which I have written and spoken about at some length, for any who are interested.

Among other things, we know that the Buddha taught we should not approach our own views with the attitude “this alone is true and everything else is false”. This is a lesson I have tried to take to heart over the years, much as it is a difficult practice for me.

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As much as I understand your skeptical approach against the agnostics, but this argument is not leading far.

Can you prove that this universe is not lying on a three-legged turtle?
Can you prove that God is not in every particle and phenomena of this existence?
No? So you admit that there is a really good chance that these are true? etc.etc.

I don’t see an alternative to @DKervick 's position that the responsibility of proof lies on the side of the unobservable claim.

Personally though I don’t think that the faithful have to prove anything - faith can be an important state of mind. But if they claim a higher validity for their position and denounce the positions of others then they’d have to justify that claim outside of their own discourse. The argument that the Buddha wouldn’t lie for example makes sense to the Buddhist but to others of course it’s meaningless. “Jesus wouldn’t lie” thinks the Christian, or “Mahavira wouldn’t lie” the Jain, or “Krishna wouldn’t lie” the Hindu, etc.

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Thanks for responding. I totally agree- people are afraid of death. That was my point. They are afraid of losing everything, and probably also the pain of dying (and yes, some people are also scared of hell and other painful states of existence beyond death. And not always consciously, IMO…Naturally, others are expecting heaven, and some people do die peacefully, even wearing a grin…but I digress). Believing in nothingness at death can be “comforting” in a sense, not necessarily when you’re actually on the death bed, but during the course of your life - if you ever start to worry about it, you can remind yourself that you don’t believe any of that (afterlife), and in a sense, there is nothing to worry about. Of course, many people are really attached to life and want it to continue - but even this is not always true.

You seemed to be asserting that people are inclined to believe in rebirth because they want this life to continue, they are attached to it etc… my main point was that rebirth doesn’t solve this problem at all (at least, not Buddhist rebirth), because in order to get reborn you still have to die and lose everything in this life - so the scary and not very fun parts of dying remain.

This reminds me of a conversation I heard between Robert Wright and some other philosophy professor who, when asked if he would rather die (presumably the absolute nothingness “athiest” type death), or continue living a pleasant life but with his memory erased, a new body, and a new family - he said he would rather die, because the new life wouldn’t be his own.

Perhaps Prof. Thurman is not 100% correct (though I do like the thrust of his argument) - For some people, rebirth might seem more comforting or appealing, and others might prefer nothingness. And then some would prefer automatic permanent paradise. Of course, the truth (in all likelihood) is that we don’t get to decide which of these actually happens to us. In the absence of any confirmation one way or the other, we should adopt the view that is least likely to result in an undesirable outcome.

See: https://suttacentral.net/en/mn60.

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Yes I should have been clearer about that. I think faith can be justified for a person if the faith-based view is the only one that is tolerable for them and gives them hope. I just think if that is the basis for the belief, it is not much of a ground for criticizing others.

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Yeah, this is interesting, because it is by far the most compelling argument for me. If the Buddha really did say what we think he said about rebirth, then I would be hard pressed not to believe it. I could care less about the technical aspects of it. If the Buddha said it, I am more than willing to suspend my disbelief and stand on faith until I can experience it for myself. That’s why, when it comes down to it, I personally only need to be convinced that A) the Buddha said it, and B) he meant it literally and not metaphorically. I have heard pretty convincing arguments regarding both, and I guess unless a major misunderstanding happened along the way (which of course is potentially possible), then that’s how it is. So, for now, I’m on the tentative faith team. Which does mark a major shift in my views already, so hopefully it’s for the best.

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