Why try to escape samsara rather than become a master of samsara?

The Watercooler
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A thought occurred to me recently regarding samsara.

Buddhism states that samsara is something to be transcended and escaped.

However, why shouldn’t we try to become masters of samsara and take it under our control. We nearly have the entire Earth under our control, so human life is under our conscious control. Next, we can take over different realms.

Then, we can become masters of samsara. This is master morality rather than Buddhist escapist “slave” morality.

What are your thoughts, do you think this is feasible?

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Given infinite past, it had been done before, countless times in the past. Look where it got us with respect to suffering? It doesn’t end suffering. Nothing in saṁsara lasts forever.

Cosmically speaking, universes gets destroyed and arises again, beings then restart, to repopulate the universe from higher realms. Whatever tech, civilization, buildings, culture are all gone, have to be rebuild for each universe cycle. (At least I really don’t think any tech can survive from universe to universe physically).

Personally speaking, it’s likely that all of us had been to the highest of the Brahma realms, to the formless realms before, had been Mahābrahma, Maras, Sakkas, world turning monarchs, etc. Whatever master position that is conceivable in saṁsara, it’s likely we had at some point in the past aimed for it, worked for it, got it, and then lost it, as no being is immortal. Once the good kamma to get to that high position runs dry, off we go according to our deeds.

Saṁsara is futile. Utterly hopeless to find true happiness in saṁsara. This is what should be cultivated, perception of non-delight in the entire world. That would lead to ultimate bliss. Of course, provided that one is not depression prone, for those depression prone, the above method doesn’t suit you yet, recover from depression first.

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Mastery over samsara would still mean living within the framework of impermanence and suffering. The deeper wisdom of Buddhism lies in recognizing that true liberation (nirvana) comes not from controlling samsara, but from transcending it—by overcoming ignorance, desire, and attachment, which are the roots of suffering.

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Just how do the current affairs on the planet make you confident that human life is under conscious control?

May these realms be spared !

Samsara is a term for conditioned reality. We ourselves are entirely conditioned in body and mind. Besides Nibbana there is absolutely no way to escape these conditions.

“Taking power over Samsara” makes about the same sense as “taking power over natural laws”. It can’t possibly be accomplished.

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I don’t know what “infinite past” means. Sounds nonsensical. Shouldn’t things then repeat? If I achieve final nirvana, then at some point in the future, its possible that the universe will reconstruct me.

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To live is to desire. To not desire is to be death. You’re saying that nibbana = death.

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Sn15.7

“Mendicants, many eons have passed. It’s not easy to calculate how many eons have passed, how many hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands of eons.”

“But sir, is it possible to give a simile?”

“It’s possible,” said the Buddha.

“Suppose there were four disciples with a lifespan of a hundred years. And each day they would each recollect a hundred thousand eons. Those four disciples would pass away after a hundred years and there would still be eons that they haven’t recollected. That’s how many eons have passed. It’s not easy to calculate how many eons have passed, how many hundreds or thousands or hundreds of thousands of eons.

Why is that? Transmigration has no known beginning. … This is quite enough for you to become disillusioned, dispassionate, and freed regarding all conditions.”

Sn15.12

“Mendicants, transmigration has no known beginning. … When you see someone in a good way, in a happy state, you should conclude: ‘In all this long time, we too have undergone the same thing.’

You’re being a bit confused as to the definition of you here.

For the purpose of nibbāna, ending this stream of consciousness, the chains of past rebirth to infinite past, the string is ended at nibbāna, arahanthood, no more rebirth. There’s no soul which is destroyed, but this sequence of causation finally ended.

But your notion of reconstruct seems to indicate that you identify this particular 5 aggregates as you. It is not you. It’s just a particular arrangement of mind and matter. Given infinite past, it can be deduced that we were all sorts of genders, sexuality, having all sorts of face, names, behaviours, etc in the far past, keep going on long enough, I was once having the same 5 aggregates that you have, or at least the difference is so small it is insignificant. You also had the same 5 aggregates I have. Only thing which is unique and irreversible, is the mind of a stream winner onwards.

There’s nothing unique about any 5 aggregates. Nothing worth identifying as self. An arahant who had attained parinibbāna may had once long ago in their previous life looked exactly like you, have almost the same mindset as you etc. You are not the 5 aggregates which reappear in the universe, just because some stream of consciousness happens to evolve into that particular arrangements.

Really? Where’s the anti gravity belt? Where I can just block gravitons, and then float to the moon without any fuel. There’s no such thing.

Read DN26 on what happens to utopias, and DN27 to see that even if the universe managed to maintain utopia until it dies, the universe will still die.

To not desire (craving) is the aim of the holy path. Nibbāna is ending of suffering, which is ending of rebirth. One final death and no more. That’s it. Nibbāna is not some sort of heaven.

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This did this get hidden, I don’t get it

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I didn’t know Buddhism talked about all this. I will contemplate this. Thank you.

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I think here you mean ‘mentality’ instead of ‘morality’.
Well, I think first question to ask is what does it mean to be master of samsara? Do you mean something along the lines of master of the whole world or even other worlds?

In MN82 there is a story of a king - too with desire/craving to dominate, asking a monk why they become one. The monk gives a reason - because the world is a slave of craving! - and he does not wish to be one!

You also said this: ‘The world is wanting, insatiable, the slave of craving.’ How should I see the meaning of this statement?”

“What do you think, great king? Do you reign over the prosperous land of Kuru?”

“Indeed I do.”

“What do you think, great king? Suppose a trustworthy and reliable man were to come from the east. He’d approach you and say: ‘Please great king, you should know this. I come from the east. There I saw a large country that is successful and prosperous, populous, full of people. They have many divisions of elephants, cavalry, chariots, and infantry. And there’s plenty of money and grain, plenty of gold, coined and uncoined, worked and unworked, and plenty of women for the taking. With your current forces you can conquer it. Conquer it, great king!’ What would you do?”

“I would conquer it and reign over it.”

“What do you think, great king? Suppose a trustworthy and reliable man were to come from the west, north, south, or from over the ocean. He’d approach you and say the same thing. What would you do?”

“I would conquer it and reign over it.”

“This is what the Buddha was referring to when he said: ‘The world is wanting, insatiable, the slave of craving.’ And it was after knowing and seeing and hearing this that I went forth from the lay life to homelessness.”

“It’s incredible, Mister Raṭṭhapāla, it’s amazing, how well said this was by the Buddha. For the world is indeed wanting, insatiable, the slave of craving.”

MN82 introduces the concept of being slave to craving/desire. Does your concept of “master of samsara” include mastery over craving/desire?

Or I can ask the following question: Suppose that you’ve become master of the whole world or worlds - what then? would you create another desire or live without desire from then on, satisfied?
In any case, the accomplishment would be temporary - after all humans live for a very short time. Even if one was part of the group that dominated the samsara - what about after leaving this world?
And it is written - that after leaving this world one goes on either to good destination or not so good one - depending on one’s deeds, views, faith, love.

So which ever route one decides to go - one better be aware that such accomplishment is - first of all temporary - and that there are results of good and bad deeds - so one better do good by ways of body, speech and mind.

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“You mean you’re taking a vow of silence because of Friedrich Nietzsche?” - Little Miss Sunshine

Try this article: https://www.princeton.edu/~elman/documents/Nietzsche_and_Buddhism.pdf