Why were suttas made in the form that they are in?

Discussion
1

When one has read thousands of suttas some things will become painfully apparent. I really wonder why they were set down the way they were. What I find disappointing are:

1) Order of the suttas.
It seems that the suttas are placed in (what looks like) a random way. For example: why Parinibbana sutta placed in the middle (#16) of Digha Nikaya and not in the end (#34)? I think that it would have been more appropriate for it to be either at the very end, or close to the end with suttas about events after it to be the end. Wouldn’t it be logical to have the first sutta/s deal with Gotama before Awakening, then his struggle for Awakening, and his Parinibbana toward the end? Currently, it seems like one can read the suttas in any order and not miss a thing.

2) Fragmentary nature of the instruction. Often suttas deal only with a very narrow theme, or topic and are totally silent on other things. Thus it is very easy to infer wrong conclusions merely due to absence of information.

Ex: A monk goes to the Buddha asking for instruction and then instantly awakens after hearing short instruction. Some people have misunderstood this to imply that one can become awakened merely through hearing a Dhamma talk. What the sutta doesn’t mention (but, maybe, takes for granted that learned student knows) is the key. What if that monk was a serious meditator who meditated for 20+ years and who already accomplished so much that he needed just one little wise nudge in the right direction by the Buddha? It is easy to overlook that. The issue is that while in some suttas it is obvious what they take for granted and assumed, in some other suttas it might not be that obvious. Worst case is where we don’t know that we are missing some crucial piece of information.

If one misses MN111 sutta, then by reading MN74 one might get wrong impression that ven. Sariputta attained Arhatship without much (or any) jhanas while fanning the Buddha and listening to his Dhamma talk. It would make perfect sense as ven. Sariputta was disciple of highest wisdom who gained stream-entry from hearing a single line from ven. Assaji. Yet in MN111 it talks how he needed to reach all jhanas, arupa states and saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ. To get a more correct understanding of ven. Sariputta’s Arhatship in MN74 one need to read not MN73, but MN 111…

Why couldn’t the suttas be organized in a more logical way, more like a text book (such as VsM) and without skipping essential steps or placing them far away from where/when they occur. And with events & teachings happening in more chronological order.

Anyone knows?

2

The suttas were largely ordered according to the needs of those memorizing them.

For example, DN1 and MN1 are both a very thorough matrix of wrong views helpful for explaining to the new convert how Buddhism differs from e.g. Brahminism. These were likely placed first as they’d be the first suttas a new convert would memorize after joining a DN or MN reciting group.

The desire to place the Parinibbana Sutta at the end where it logically belongs had to be balanced against its great importance (which would place it near the beginning). So a compromise was reached, and it was placed in the middle! :sweat_smile:

2 Likes
3

Bhante,

The suttas were largely ordered according to the needs of those memorizing them.

Wouldn’t it be easier to memorize suttas arranged in chronological order (birth, awakening, 1st teachings, parinibbana, aftermath) ?

a new convert

Maybe it is my personal thing but I think that one of the first things one would like to know is about the Leader, the Founder of the path…

, DN1 and MN1 are both a very thorough matrix of wrong views helpful for explaining to the new convert how Buddhism differs from e.g. Brahminism. These were likely placed first as they’d be the first suttas a new convert would memorize after joining a DN or MN reciting group.

You have very interesting point about MN & DN reciting group. Are you saying that the most important suttas were the first initial ones?

But when it comes to Samyutta Nikaya, it seems that most important suttas IMHO start much further, from 12th samyutta.

Thank you for your interesting points, Bhante! :anjal:

4

Instead of going for a repetitive sutta at the beginning, they opted for poetry, likely also as a kindness to new monks learning how to memorize texts. The Māra Samyutta in particular served the same goal as MN1/DN1 of presenting the non-Buddhist views clearly in an easily memorized package.

Then you should join a Vinaya reciting group! :grin: As indeed the Vinaya was arranged this way, with the Buddha’s enlightenment and teaching the first disciples at the beginning :blush:

5

Bikkhu Bodhi gives a description of the different motivation of each of the Nikayas in the preamble to “In the Buddha’s Words.” (I can no longer access the free source version, could @mikenz66 correct this ?)

One thing Bikkhu Bodhi says is the Anguttara Nikaya is more human oriented than the others, and consequently is currently conducting online studies of suttas in that.

“The Aṅguttara includes a notable proportion of suttas addressed to lay followers dealing with the ethical and spiritual concerns of life within the world, including family relationships (husbands and wives, children and parents) and the proper ways to acquire, save, and utilize wealth. Other suttas deal with the practical training of monks. The numerical arrangement of this collection makes it particularly convenient for formal instruction, and thus it could easily be drawn upon by elder monks when teaching their pupils and by preachers when giving sermons to the laity.”

— “In the Buddha’s Words”

6

Here is a direct link to the General Introduction:
https://web.archive.org/web/20160320174115/http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/buddha’s-words/introduction

The Origins of the Nikāyas

The texts I have drawn upon to fill out my scheme are, as I said above, all selected from the Nikāyas, the main sutta collections of the Pāli Canon. Some words are needed to explain the origin and nature of these sources.
…

1 Like
7

It is also interesting to note that the Chinese Samyukta Agama (SA) has been reconstructed by Ven. Yinshun and in this reconstruction the Khandha Samyutta is first. Personally I think the structure of Pali SN is a bit jumbled. And the structure originally could have well been similar to the reconstructed SA.

In this topic you can find the reconstructed SA:

2 Likes
8

Regarding the reconstructed SA, see also:

Choong Mun-keat, “Ācāriya Buddhaghosa and Master Yinshun 印順 on the Three-aṅga Structure of Early Buddhist Texts” in Research on the Saṃyukta-āgama (Dharma Drum Institute of Liberal Arts, Research Series 8; edited by Dhammadinnā), Taiwan: Dharma Drum Corporation, August 2020, pp. 883-932.

https://www.academia.edu/44055729/%C4%8 (“Ācāriya Buddhaghosa and Master Yinshun 印順 on the Three-aṅga Structure of Early Buddhist Texts” 2020)

1 Like
9

I have discussed this point in some detail in my introduction to the Anguttara :pray:

https://suttacentral.net/edition/an/en/sujato/introduction

2 Likes
10

Bhante,

Thank you for that article (re: AN). Very interesting!

Still I have this question:

For example:
Buddha’s instruction to Malunkyaputta are found in suttas such as: SN35.95 and AN4.257.
The teaching leading to Arhatship are different in both of them and they don’t mention that they feature only a portion of the entire teaching that the Buddha gave.
I can understand why those parts were placed in corresponding areas (Teaching on 6 sense objects in SN35, four Items in AN book of 4s).

Why couldn’t there be an additional sutta that has the entire holistic picture in one sutta (perhaps in DN or MN) ? This isn’t a trivial question or some fancy. Knowing complete teaching that the Buddha gave on such-and-such occasion is of paramount importance. Otherwise it might be possible to get wrong or incomplete ideas.

Thank you.
:anjal:

11

No. If there is a such thing as chronological order, then there is no need to memorize them in that way since the order is already apparent.

Also, the number of suttas that can be placed in any kind of reliable chronology is vanishingly small. So chronology provides a system for only a handful of suttas when compared to the whole collection. That makes it kind of useless.

And for those suttas that don’t relate to the Buddha’s biography, there is no meaning in the “order” they would have been given. There is no indication from within the suttas (or even commentary I believe) that the Buddha’s Dhamma changed or developed between his enlightenment and passing away. This of course doesn’t stop people from making up theories. But at the end of the day they are just that.

The fact that we still have the Pali suttas with us today is an indication that the manner of organization and preservation has proven to be very good.

2 Likes
12

When we compare the way different early canons have come down to us, it becomes apparent that it was a fairly arbitrary process and that the EBTs went through a period at some point in history when they become completely disordered, and then they were rearranged in different ways by each Buddhist tradition. It’s not peculiar to the Theravada tradition. Myself, I think this was the reason Abhidharma became the primary material of study - the old sutta collections had become too difficult to digest. So Abhidharma texts were composed to try to summarize their contents.

The other thing to realize is that it was very difficult to maintain any manuscript in a standard form in ancient times before printing presses were invented. Everything was either taught word of mouth or copied one manuscript at a time. If we look at any ancient literary tradition, we find all sorts of inconsistencies and disordering that took place over time. It’s not just Buddhists.

2 Likes
13

Bhante @Sujato’s points in the essay he linked to about memorization are important. In fact, one could say that since the suttas were transmitted by memorization, organization is relatively unimportant other than for the purposes of aiding memorization. For memorized material, one has random access, which is arguably more like doing a search on digital information than leafing through books.

Nowdays, there are few who attempt to memorize a whole Nikaya, but one does hear of some who can quote Pali suttas verbatim from memory when teaching.

One might ask why there appear to be no ancient collections along the lines of Bhikkhu Bodhi’s In the Buddha’s Words, https://readingfaithfully.org/in-the-buddhas-words-an-anthology-of-discourses-from-the-pali-canon-linked-to-suttacentral-net/
There is the Khuddakapāṭha (Basic passages) SuttaCentral but that is quite short. Works that provide an extensive overview, such as the Visudhimagga, draw heavily on Abhidhamma and Commentary.

14

No. If there is a such thing as chronological order, then there is no need to memorize them in that way since the order is already apparent.

It would be easier for us. For example, in SN and AN there are a number of small suttas where the Buddha talks about his insight investigations “before I was unawakened bodhisatta”

While dwelling at Såvatth¥. [170] “Bhikkhus, before my enlightenment, while I was still a bodhisatta, not yet fully enlightened, it occurred to me: ‘What is the gratification, what is the danger, what is the escape in the case of the earth element? What is the gratification, what is the danger, what is the scape in the case of the water element … the heat element … the air element?’ …
“So long, bhikkhus, as I did not directly know as they really are the gratification, the danger, and the escape in the case of these four elements, I did not claim to have awakened to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment in this world with its devas, Måra, and Brahmå, in this generation with its recluses and brahmins, its devas and humans. But when I directly knew all this as it really is, then I claimed to have awakened to the unsurpassed perfect enlightenment in this world with … its devas and humans. “The knowledge and vision arose in me: ‘Unshakeable is my liberation of mind; this is my last birth; now there is no more re-becoming.’“
SN14.31 (2) Before My Enlightenment

There are plenty of suttas such as above. I wonder, when did he investigate them? Before triple knowledge, during, or after? Was these (and other similar) insight knowledges part of his 3rd knowledge on the night of his awakening? Or did He get these knowledges prior to his last night? If so, before, during or after jhanas?

This is why I am interested in Buddha’s chronology of practice.

15

Hello Mike,

Too bad there isn’t a sutta manual like VsM, except that it deals with sutta only material.

Well, there is Patisambhidamagga (in Sutta Pitaka) which is almost like a guide - but it has some signs of some later additions and English translation is not as good as Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translations of other suttas.

16

In fact, one could say that since the suttas were transmitted by memorization, organization is relatively unimportant other than for the purposes of aiding memorization. For memorized material, one has random access, which is arguably more like doing a search on digital information than leafing through books.

You have a good point, if one memorizes all of it (GOOD LUCK!) then one could jump from place to place and easily connect the pieces. At the very minimum there is ~5K+ pages to memorize. That is very difficult to do unless one has photographic memory.

17

EBTs, such as the four principal Nikayas/Agamas, were not collected and compiled in the Buddha’s chronology of practice, or with events & teachings happening in more chronological order.

The four basic texts were collected and then compiled at the first and second councils according to the 9 angas (classifications).

E.g. in various suttas there is a mention of: "the discourses, mixed prose and verse, expositions, verses, inspired utterances, quotations, birth stories, marvelous accounts, and questions-and-answers. ":

“And how is a bhikkhu one who knows the Dhamma? Here, a bhikkhu knows the Dhamma: the discourses, mixed prose and verse, expositions, verses, inspired utterances, quotations, birth stories, marvelous accounts, and questions-and-answers." (AN7.68 Bhikkhu Bodhi’s translation).

According to Ven. YinShun,

“the discourses, mixed prose and verse, expositions”, i.e. angas 1. Sutra/Sutta, 2. Geye/Geyya, 3. Vyakarana/Veyyakarana are found in SN/SA (i.e. the synthesis of the first three angas). (See also: Choong Mun-keat, “Ācāriya Buddhaghosa and Master Yinshun 印順 on the Three-aṅga Structure of Early Buddhist Texts”, Research on the Saṃyukta-āgama (Dharma Drum Institute of Liberal Arts, Research Series 8; edited by Dhammadinnā), Taiwan: Dharma Drum Corporation, August 2020, pp. 883-932.)

“quotations, birth stories, marvelous accounts, and questions-and-answers”, i.e. angas 6. Ityuktaka, 7. Jataka, 8. Vaipulya, 9. Adbhuta-dharma were compiled in MN/MA, DN/DA, AN/EA.

“verses”, i.e. anga 4. Gatha corresponds to certain texts of Sutta-nipata; “inspired utterances”, i.e. anga 5. Udana is Dhammapada. Both compiled in the Khuddaka-nikaya rather than being made part of the four basic Nikayas/Agamas.

See pp. 9-11, notes 32, 34, 36 (in Choong Mun-keat, The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism):

Pages 7-11 from The Fundamental Teachings of Early Buddhism Choong Mun-keat 2000.pdf (434.6 KB)

Cf. also: